RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,588
Posts: 5,515,365
Members: 25,158
Currently online: 573
Newest member: Giarc1982

TrekToday headlines

Two New Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Dec 26

Captain Kirk’s Boldest Missions
By: T'Bonz on Dec 25

Trek Paper Clips
By: T'Bonz on Dec 24

Sargent Passes
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

QMx Trek Insignia Badges
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

And The New Director Of Star Trek 3 Is…
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

TV Alert: Pine On Tonight Show
By: T'Bonz on Dec 22

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Voyager

Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 21 2012, 12:19 PM   #76
Lord Manitou
Commander
 
Lord Manitou's Avatar
 
Location: Michigan
Re: Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

Where women are concerned is something I don't know about. The blowing-up of the array was probably a women thing.
__________________
Janeway #1: Think, people we need options.
Janeway #2: I agree captain.

http://voyagr-ep-memorys.com/
Lord Manitou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 21 2012, 12:23 PM   #77
Gov Kodos
Admiral
 
Gov Kodos's Avatar
 
Location: Gov Kodos Regretably far from Boston
Re: Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

TNG's PD has always struck me as condescending and paternalistic and have no patience for it. Why should the folks on Tyree's world have kept fighting so, when they had a history of relations before the guns came along. Why wouldn't they have one day just made peace like any rational people. Instead, the story treats them as children who can't handle their own natures or relationships between communities because of these 'superior' cultures' interference.

If the PD is so important, in Voyager, the Caretaker was an outside force himself, and possessed a technologically more advanced than the Federation. Why shouldn't they prevent more advanced Caretaker tech falling into Kazon hands? They certainly wouldn't allow the less advanced tech of the Federation fall into Kazon hands.

Once he died, Janeway was left in possession by default, more or less, not only by being there but was brought there by the Caretaker. Being in possession of superior technology she'd be remiss in PD responsibilities to let advanced technology in her possession to fall into less advanced people's hands. Her destroying the array would seem a justifiable following of the PD as I see it.
__________________
We are quicksilver, a fleeting shadow, a distant sound... our home has no boundaries beyond which we cannot pass. We live in music, in a flash of color... we live on the wind and in the sparkle of a star! Endora, Bewitched

Last edited by Gov Kodos; March 21 2012 at 01:10 PM.
Gov Kodos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 21 2012, 02:35 PM   #78
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

The Prime Directive is focused on the natural development of any species development if Starfleet doesn't interfere.

If Janeway wasn't there.

How would things have played out?

Which is exactly the argument which those Ferengi used to win over Janeway so that they could continue exploiting those hapless aborigines.

So Voyager hadn't been pulled into the Delta Quadrant?

The Kazon might have gotten around Caretakers self destruct, and if they did, they would have taken the Array... Considering they'd been putting plans together to seize the array for years, gods, they noticed the power beaming had been increasing in speed, they weren't idiots, it seems likely that could take out the Arrays selfdestruct without too much effort considering how well they did that exact same dealio to Voyager in Basics.

it's their thing.

Their entire fleet, is predicated on the fact that they took the trabe Fleet before their captains could activate their self destructs... Do you have any idea how the Trabe would have been treated? Imagine Scarlett form Gone with the Wind suddenly kicked in the face every time they think that she isn't on her hands and knees scrubbing the floor fast enough if the Coloured people had won the US Civil War?

In personal terms.

Remember when you first moved from home and your mother kept trying to clean your apartment? 2 possibilities. Either you let her and you never learned to look after yourself, or you didn't let her and took responsibility for your own filth... You know I'm talking directly to you about your 20s, and your spouse making your life a delight right now is just an emergency replacement for your mother.

If Bryce Ewing jumped off a bridge would you?

It doesn't matter how every one else was meddling in the affairs of younger races, their chickens would come home to roost, so what if caretaker screwed over the Ocampa, saving them from the Caretaker is also screwing them over and saving he Ocampa from the Kazon is also screwing them over. So what if they die out, maybe down the line the Kazon will remember all that genocide, feel bad about it and grow up. Bad things pile up until somethign good happens, sometimes.

Some species, it is there lot to be preyed upon by a stronger older race and diverted, perverted into new direction other than cultural momentum would have sent them.

PICARD: Mirasta said it would be a mistake to discuss this with you.
DURKEN: Yes, she's tried to accept the responsibility.
PICARD: It was my error, not hers. Chancellor, there is no starship mission more dangerous than that of first contact. We never know what we will face when we open the door on a new world, how we will be greeted, what exactly the dangers will be. Centuries ago, a disastrous contact with the Klingon Empire led to decades of war. It was decided then we would do surveillance before making contact. It was a controversial decision. I believe it prevented more problems than it created.
DURKEN: I can appreciate the logic of your position, Captain. But it would seem a full disclosure after contact would have been in order.
PICARD: In time there would have been full disclosure. I can only ask you to believe that. On other worlds it would not be an issue. But here, everything our observers reported indicated that the people of this world would almost certainly react negatively to our arrival. We could see that even surveillance might even be interpreted as an act of aggression. I hoped that we would have found Commander Riker before you did so the matter would not complicate our introduction. It was a mistake.
Janeway forgot that the Prime Directive was supposed to protect the Kazon from her, and herself from the Kazon, of which she did neither.

Lord Manitou, you're one brave SOB.
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
Guy Gardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 21 2012, 03:35 PM   #79
sonak
Vice Admiral
 
Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

AuntKate wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
AuntKate wrote: View Post

Actually, it was the Caretaker that stranded them, and many others before them (like the Equinox). Janeway didn't have to offer them help. She could have left them high and dry, but she didn't.

We can't assume that their attempt to use the Caretaker's array would have been successful or that the Kazon would have given them enough time to figure out how to do it.

Once the captains decided to cooperate, Chakotay committed the Maquis to Voyager when he crashed their ship into the Kazon ship.

I guess it's just a matter of perspective.

of course your argument assumes that the array attempt wouldn't have been successful because otherwise you can't argue that Janeway didn't strand them. You're arguing backwards: the array COULDN'T have sent them home, because Janeway CAN'T be responsible for stranding them.

Had they tried and then failed, then of course she wouldn't be responsible. But she blew up the array instead.

Moreover, it was a pretty clear PD violation. Take Voyager out of the equation, and the Kazon get the array and become a dominant power. Janeway influenced regional politics to a huge degree based on her own say-so.
My position is that we don't know if Voyager could have successfully used the Caretaker's array--for whatever reason--and so it is pure speculation what might have happened. They might have been successful or not. To assume they would have been successful is just as much of a guess as to assume they would have failed.

I don't see how my argument is any more backward than yours. You say that the array COULD have gotten them home and therefore Janeway IS responsible for stranding them. I'm just saying--maybe not.

I don't think it was a PD violation, at all. Here is what Memory Alpha says about it in their Prime Directive article:

"In 2371 (Stardate 48315.6), Captain Kathryn Janeway destroyed the Caretaker's Array to prevent the Kazon from using it aginst the Ocampa, even after Tuvok said "[destroying the array] will alter the balance of power... the Prime Directive would seem to apply". Janeway justified her action by stating, "We didn't ask to be involved...but we are." to prevent the bellicose Kazon from using thr array to dominate the surrounding region. It can also be argued that the Caretaker's actions made the Ocampa society so dependent that it retarded their society's natural growth and evolution to the point that their society was stagnate. By destroying the array, Janeway released the Ocampa from their dependence on the array and placed them back on a path towards natural, cultural evolution. Hence the Prime Directive would not apply in this instance. (VOY: "Caretaker")"

I'm not a fan of the post-TOS PD, but that's just silliness. Who is Janeway to decide what the Ocampa's natural evolution should be? And what about the Kazon? She just became their enemies and denied them access to a balance of power changing technology. TNG-era PD would say that's a no-no. Janeway seems to be adopting a sort of Kirk-like flexible TOS-era PD interpretation, which would be ok, EXCEPT that for other situations in Voyager she's a strict regulations enthusiast. It just shows that Janeway was written so inconsistently and that they didn't get a good handle on her character.
sonak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 21 2012, 04:13 PM   #80
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

Janeway was fine with the Kazon taking the array initially, even though she knew exactly who they were and how they behaved. it seemed as though that she didn't believe that she or her crew were at all involved in what was happening here in the Delta Quadrant.

JABIN [on viewscreen]: Have you come to investigate the entity's strange behaviour too, Captain?
JANEWAY: All we care about is getting home, Jabin. We're about to transport over to the Array to see if we can arrange it.
JABIN [on viewscreen]: I'm afraid I can not permit that.
JANEWAY: We have no dispute with you.
JABIN [on viewscreen]: I have a dispute with anyone who would challenge us.
JANEWAY: This is ridiculous. We have no intention of challenging you.
JABIN [on viewscreen]: And I have no intention of letting anyone with your technological knowledge board the Array.
JANEWAY: Jabin, can we discuss this like two civilised
(Transmission ends.)
TUVOK: They're powering up their weapons.
If Jabin had not picked a fight, Janeway would have turned off the self destruct, used the array to get home and then, maybe she would have sabotaged the frakk, and maybe she would have left it intact, it all depends on after Caretaker died who was laying claim to that piece of real estate... once it was their array, she couldn't blow it up legally, and lets face it she was proposing a joint mission before everything went to hell after she called Jabin "uncivilized" and them is fighting words on most worlds, and it's like Kathryn had never had a conversation with a Klingon or a Cardassian before, to anticipate how a warlord from a savage childrace might take offense to be called names.
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
Guy Gardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 21 2012, 05:23 PM   #81
AuntKate
Commodore
 
AuntKate's Avatar
 
Location: USA--smack dab in the middle
Re: Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

sonak wrote: View Post
I'm not a fan of the post-TOS PD, but that's just silliness. Who is Janeway to decide what the Ocampa's natural evolution should be? And what about the Kazon? She just became their enemies and denied them access to a balance of power changing technology. TNG-era PD would say that's a no-no. Janeway seems to be adopting a sort of Kirk-like flexible TOS-era PD interpretation, which would be ok, EXCEPT that for other situations in Voyager she's a strict regulations enthusiast. It just shows that Janeway was written so inconsistently and that they didn't get a good handle on her character.
Does "natural evolution" include the exploitation of their world by a being from outside the galaxy? All she is doing to this area of space is removing an alien presence that has distorted both the Kazon and the Ocampa's existence.

And I think it is only natural for Janeway to take a more Kirk-like, case-by-case approach to the PD as she travels through the DQ. Sometimes inconsistency is what makes sense. As a parent, I've learned that I have to deal with each child as an individual--what works to help one child fails with another. Strange as it may sound, inconsistency can be more fair than a rigid approach.
__________________
"There's got to be a way to have our cake and eat it, too." CPT Janeway
AuntKate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 21 2012, 05:55 PM   #82
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

I find sitting on children the best way to get correct behavior I want.

Sit and wait.

The Ocampa had been underground for a thousand years and Caretaker didn't care, or couldn't stop the Kazon occupation of the surface of... Caretaker was going to blow up his array, and in 5 years when the Ocampa ran out of water, they would burrow tot he surface and die. They might die faster if the forcefield gives out before their water, but that's 50/50, considering most of their water is replicated or recycled since they don't have underwater lakes to draw upon after a thousand years of living in the same place.

Caretaker planned that the Ocampa would have another 5 years of niceness and then they would die.

That was the status quo.

He had almost no effect on the Kazon.

Their reach extended perhaps 2 years or more at high warp in every direction from Ocmapa.

Compared to the vast empires screwing with them in every direction, banjoman was just one cranky bastard shaking his fist telling them to keep off his lawn impotently.
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
Guy Gardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 21 2012, 08:20 PM   #83
sonak
Vice Admiral
 
Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

AuntKate wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
I'm not a fan of the post-TOS PD, but that's just silliness. Who is Janeway to decide what the Ocampa's natural evolution should be? And what about the Kazon? She just became their enemies and denied them access to a balance of power changing technology. TNG-era PD would say that's a no-no. Janeway seems to be adopting a sort of Kirk-like flexible TOS-era PD interpretation, which would be ok, EXCEPT that for other situations in Voyager she's a strict regulations enthusiast. It just shows that Janeway was written so inconsistently and that they didn't get a good handle on her character.
Does "natural evolution" include the exploitation of their world by a being from outside the galaxy? All she is doing to this area of space is removing an alien presence that has distorted both the Kazon and the Ocampa's existence.

And I think it is only natural for Janeway to take a more Kirk-like, case-by-case approach to the PD as she travels through the DQ. Sometimes inconsistency is what makes sense. As a parent, I've learned that I have to deal with each child as an individual--what works to help one child fails with another. Strange as it may sound, inconsistency can be more fair than a rigid approach.

I don't really think there IS such a thing as "natural evolution." Was an asteroid impacting Earth's evolution not a part of its "natural" evolution because it was an event caused by an "outside" object? We just have to do the best we can with the info we have, which is why the PD is stupid and makes no sense.

However, in the "caretaker" scenario, Janeway's responsibility was getting her crew back to the AQ, not getting involved in local politics.
sonak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 21 2012, 09:13 PM   #84
AuntKate
Commodore
 
AuntKate's Avatar
 
Location: USA--smack dab in the middle
Re: Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

sonak wrote: View Post
AuntKate wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
I'm not a fan of the post-TOS PD, but that's just silliness. Who is Janeway to decide what the Ocampa's natural evolution should be? And what about the Kazon? She just became their enemies and denied them access to a balance of power changing technology. TNG-era PD would say that's a no-no. Janeway seems to be adopting a sort of Kirk-like flexible TOS-era PD interpretation, which would be ok, EXCEPT that for other situations in Voyager she's a strict regulations enthusiast. It just shows that Janeway was written so inconsistently and that they didn't get a good handle on her character.
Does "natural evolution" include the exploitation of their world by a being from outside the galaxy? All she is doing to this area of space is removing an alien presence that has distorted both the Kazon and the Ocampa's existence.

And I think it is only natural for Janeway to take a more Kirk-like, case-by-case approach to the PD as she travels through the DQ. Sometimes inconsistency is what makes sense. As a parent, I've learned that I have to deal with each child as an individual--what works to help one child fails with another. Strange as it may sound, inconsistency can be more fair than a rigid approach.

I don't really think there IS such a thing as "natural evolution." Was an asteroid impacting Earth's evolution not a part of its "natural" evolution because it was an event caused by an "outside" object? We just have to do the best we can with the info we have, which is why the PD is stupid and makes no sense.

However, in the "caretaker" scenario, Janeway's responsibility was getting her crew back to the AQ, not getting involved in local politics.
An outside non-sentient object is part of nature, whereas a sentient being can choose to act or not act. So I don't think we can equate the impact of an asteroid with the conscious action of a living, sentient being.

We can argree to disagree about what her responsibility was. The PD sometimes requires a SF crew to make a sacrifice . . .
__________________
"There's got to be a way to have our cake and eat it, too." CPT Janeway
AuntKate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 21 2012, 09:26 PM   #85
sonak
Vice Admiral
 
Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

AuntKate wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
AuntKate wrote: View Post

Does "natural evolution" include the exploitation of their world by a being from outside the galaxy? All she is doing to this area of space is removing an alien presence that has distorted both the Kazon and the Ocampa's existence.

And I think it is only natural for Janeway to take a more Kirk-like, case-by-case approach to the PD as she travels through the DQ. Sometimes inconsistency is what makes sense. As a parent, I've learned that I have to deal with each child as an individual--what works to help one child fails with another. Strange as it may sound, inconsistency can be more fair than a rigid approach.

I don't really think there IS such a thing as "natural evolution." Was an asteroid impacting Earth's evolution not a part of its "natural" evolution because it was an event caused by an "outside" object? We just have to do the best we can with the info we have, which is why the PD is stupid and makes no sense.

However, in the "caretaker" scenario, Janeway's responsibility was getting her crew back to the AQ, not getting involved in local politics.
An outside non-sentient object is part of nature, whereas a sentient being can choose to act or not act. So I don't think we can equate the impact of an asteroid with the conscious action of a living, sentient being.

We can argree to disagree about what her responsibility was. The PD sometimes requires a SF crew to make a sacrifice . . .

sentient beings are a part of nature.


So you're saying now, not only was it NOT a violation of the PD, but that Janeway was required BY the PD to do what she did? Interesting.


(remember though, that the Maquis weren't under the PD, so they'd still feel some resentment)
sonak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 21 2012, 09:45 PM   #86
AuntKate
Commodore
 
AuntKate's Avatar
 
Location: USA--smack dab in the middle
Re: Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

They are part of nature, but they have freedom of choice.
__________________
"There's got to be a way to have our cake and eat it, too." CPT Janeway
AuntKate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 21 2012, 10:14 PM   #87
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

Caretaker had been part of local politics for the last thousand years, but you see him as an external factor?

By that reckoning, if Janeway was to show up on Earth today and a couple native American Indians where to ask her to smash whitey who was overrunning their country she'd be all up for it? Removing a foreign alien influence disaffecting the proper land lords of America?

Ditto with the English in Ireland.

Ditto with whitey in Australia.

And goodness knows who she would side with over Jerusalem because Kathryn wouldn't be phased by who had the oldest if not cutest claim to the Holyland that her sense of righteousness can justly ply apart thousands of years of rebuilding their homes on the bones of the recently murdered?

Caretaker was part of the local politics just like the Romulans were in charge of Reeman space, of the Cardasssians were allowed to occupy Bajor because after 50 years the status quo had been accepted as just something that is, because the first movements originated before most of the current players were born.
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
Guy Gardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 23 2012, 03:39 AM   #88
AuntKate
Commodore
 
AuntKate's Avatar
 
Location: USA--smack dab in the middle
Re: Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

Lord Manitou wrote: View Post
Where women are concerned is something I don't know about. The blowing-up of the array was probably a women thing.
Ouch. I guess it's too late for you to edit this.
__________________
"There's got to be a way to have our cake and eat it, too." CPT Janeway
AuntKate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 23 2012, 06:59 AM   #89
Gov Kodos
Admiral
 
Gov Kodos's Avatar
 
Location: Gov Kodos Regretably far from Boston
Re: Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

If the Prime Directive is a concern, should the Federation apply it to itself. In the case of Arturis and his slip stream drive, which is much more advanced than Federation technology. (Assuming it were given in full honesty, rather than as in the show) shouldn't they refuse the technology as it would upset their normal development as a civilization? Why is it acceptable for the Federation and Star Fleet to acquire advanced technology, but deny it to others?
__________________
We are quicksilver, a fleeting shadow, a distant sound... our home has no boundaries beyond which we cannot pass. We live in music, in a flash of color... we live on the wind and in the sparkle of a star! Endora, Bewitched
Gov Kodos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 23 2012, 08:44 AM   #90
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

Janeway said that the Prime Directive applied in Prototype.

AI utilizing a technology generations ahead of Starfleet that was pwning Voyager.

Of course the Prime Directive goes both ways, applying to more advanced races screwing the federation over. Being nice to the younger races is about the best way to prove to the older races that you're too nice to be fucked over for no reason.

Although even if a world is more technologically advanced, Janeway can still contaminate them with culture and philosophy, like in the case of A Piece of the Action. Look what one book did. I mean Janeway would never just hand over an entire book like that and walk away never considering the consequences of her actions.

Besides Kodos, if you're talking about keeping the Array out of the Kazons hands in the pilot, the Prime Directive said that the Kazon were supposed to get it, Tuvok says that on camera, and breaking the Prime Directive was to stop the Kazon getting the Array, which is still what Tuvok said but a little more clearer, is bad and criminal and wrong. It is the natural development of the Kazon to take advantage of valuable salvage, and Janeway broke her own laws to stop them, to cancel Christmas, because she didn't like the possibility or what she thought that they might do with that technology maybe. She didn't like the consequence of herself doing nothing, as in what would have happened regardless if she wasn't there... if she was really concerned with the Kazon murdering and enslaving little cow species, then she should have killed them all. Her half measure was insulting to every one else in the quadrant being oppressed by the Kazon who Janeway left in chains, including her own crew two years later.

The only way that Janeways decision made sense was if she was severing all bonds with the Federation and aligning herself with some hypothetical quasigreatergood manifestation of the Delta Quadrant inhabitants of which she was it's chief moral arbitrator... Because that's what "being involved" in local politics means, when you have no damn idea what the local politics are, rather being a disinterested foreign interest who doesn't believe they want to be responsible for idiots acting idiotically and every one else paying the cost.

Ijust want you all to remember that Janeway said that she had NEVER broken the prime directive in Equinox, but later...

KASHYK: Are you sure you'll be welcome when you do? I came across something else in your database. The Prime Directive.
JANEWAY: The Federation's cardinal protocol.
KASHYK: It seems you violated it when you rescued these telepaths.
JANEWAY: Well, let's just say I usually go with my instincts and sort it out later at the Board of Inquiry. Those Admirals and I were on a first name basis, you know. You're risking a lot, too. Why?
She's saying that she's above the law because she knows people.

And really, if the Prime Directive applies to the Devore Imperium, a race on par with the Federation, at least in terms of technology, then it applies to everyone.
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz

Last edited by Guy Gardener; March 23 2012 at 09:10 AM.
Guy Gardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
janeway

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:19 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.