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Old March 21 2012, 03:26 AM   #676
CaptainCanada
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

I'm not sure if it's "ambitions" with Stannis, because he's openly stated that he doesn't want to be king; he just is king (which is true, under the Baratheon succession), and his world that means he has to do it. He's strayed into some ethical gray areas in the process and done things he might not have done otherwise (down to, as he said to Davos, pardoning all those lords who joined him after Renly's death even though they were weasels he was strongly inclined to punish otherwise).
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Old March 21 2012, 03:30 AM   #677
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Ned forsook his honor, and lied to protect his children, right before he died. Had he lived, would he have done it again? Stannis is clearly uncomfortable with the whole red god thing and the shadowbabies. But he does what he thinks he must for the greater good, the rightness of his claim.
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Old March 21 2012, 05:31 AM   #678
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Stannis' behavior is easily explained by being a hypocrite - like most lords and kings, he thinks oaths apply the people under him but not himself.

He was happy to rise up against the Targaryens, but will destroy anyone who challenges his claim.
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Old March 21 2012, 01:02 PM   #679
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Actually, Stannis struggled the most with whether to support Robert or Aerys in the Rebellion. That's one of the sore points between Robert and Stannis, because Robert was mad his brother didn't immediately jump to his aid.
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Old March 21 2012, 01:04 PM   #680
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Yes, he talks about how he agonized over that and ultimately chose Robert. Which no doubt adds to his annoyance at how poorly Robert rewarded him for all his loyal service.
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Old March 21 2012, 02:13 PM   #681
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Thing is, all the "Loyal Service" stuff we hear about comes from Stannis or his most loyal men (Cressen, mainly). I'm starting to think that he may not have been all that great to Robert in the first place, I mean for people who blame Robert for Stannis' personality it's stated in the prologue to ACOK that he was a humorless stiff person even as a boy.

I have to wonder just why Robert had such a rough relationship with Stannis, given how similar he and Ned are in personality.
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Old March 21 2012, 02:32 PM   #682
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

He was raised with Ned. Stannis and Robert never really built those familial bonds.
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Old March 21 2012, 02:45 PM   #683
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Stannis is stiff and humourless by nature, from what we've seen, but nobody has ever disputed that he served Robert with great distinction in the wars (to, again, the point of breaking his own dearly-held belief in the law to join his rebellion) - he held Storm's End to the point of starvation (without which the rebellion would have been crushed due to force concentration), and annihilated the Iron Fleet, which essentially ended the first Greyjoy uprising. And then he and Jon Arryn were pretty much the only people on Robert's council actually trying to keep the realm on good footing, whilst Robert ignored the government, spent it into debt, and tolerated the corruption of other ministers. Stannis' complaints against Robert seem fairly well-founded, in comparison (even Cersei confirmed that giving Stannis Dragonstone while Renly got Storm's End was intended by Robert as an insult).
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Old March 21 2012, 03:50 PM   #684
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

We can't take anything Cersei says as truth though, she'd see slights where there were none.

Robert probably was trying to be nice to Stannis by giving him the Home of the Royal Heir, but he should've made him Lord Paramount of the Stormlands at the same time.

I think it's because neither Robert nor Stannis are able to mentally develop beyond teenage years, Robert probably gave Storm's End to Renly because Renly was a child and Robert could keep the Stormlands through Renly. He childishly wanted to keep his birthright and his new Throne, but still felt Stannis deserved something. So he was trying to be nice but cocked it up.

Even that mess with Stannis' marriage bed could be explained: Robert saw for himself how disgusted Stannis was with his wife, he felt lousy for forcing him to marry someone like that (after all, he had a beautiful unpleasant person forced on him and Stannis doesn't even get the luxury of Selyse being pretty), got drunk and figured "Hell, Stannis won't enjoy himself in that bed anyways so why not?"

He was raised with Ned. Stannis and Robert never really built those familial bonds
Yeah, but they're similar enough you'd think he'd notice THAT.
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Old March 21 2012, 04:17 PM   #685
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Anwar wrote: View Post
We can't take anything Cersei says as truth though, she'd see slights where there were none.
Not by herself, but Cersei wasn't the only one who took it that way; that was how pretty much everybody interpreted it, including Stannis himself.

This isn't really disputed by anyone. Robert blamed Stannis for the Targaryens escaping Dragonstone, even though they had left the island long before Stannis' fleet could have been ready to sail.
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Old March 21 2012, 04:32 PM   #686
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Yeah, that was bad. But I can't really believe their relationship is as simple as it seems for this series. It's more complex and multi-layered with a history between both brothers, not just Robert being a jerk to Stannis.
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Old March 21 2012, 04:45 PM   #687
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

CaptainCanada wrote: View Post
(even Cersei confirmed that giving Stannis Dragonstone while Renly got Storm's End was intended by Robert as an insult).
Not exactly. I recall the problem was that Renly was still basically a child when the war ended, and with Dragonstone's previous lords obviously vacant, Robert needed someone to manage that estate - someone he could trust. Stannis was needed there - the right man for the right job - but a consequence of giving him that title was letting Renly have the more lucrative and prestigious Storm's End. It could be Robert's attitude towards Stannis insisting on Storm's End got more sour later, but the initial posting was not an insult.
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Old March 21 2012, 06:19 PM   #688
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

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Not exactly. I recall the problem was that Renly was still basically a child when the war ended, and with Dragonstone's previous lords obviously vacant, Robert needed someone to manage that estate - someone he could trust. Stannis was needed there - the right man for the right job - but a consequence of giving him that title was letting Renly have the more lucrative and prestigious Storm's End. It could be Robert's attitude towards Stannis insisting on Storm's End got more sour later, but the initial posting was not an insult.
I don't recall that at all. Dragonstone is a tiny estate with few resources and, historical significance to the Targaryens notwithstanding, of no real importance. Beyond which Stannis, concurrently the Master of Ships, was rarely there anyway, his duties being in the capital city, so he wasn't really managing it day-to-day.
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Old March 21 2012, 06:35 PM   #689
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

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I don't recall that at all. Dragonstone is a tiny estate with few resources and, historical significance to the Targaryens notwithstanding, of no real importance.
I was pretty sure Robert didn't intend it as a slight so I went to see if I could find a source. This'll do (sort of):

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/...heon_Brothers/
Key bit here:

George R. R. Martin wrote:
Stannis always resented being given Dragonstone while Renly got Storm's End, and took that as a slight... but it's not necessarily true that Robert meant it that way. The Targaryen heir apparent had always been titled Prince of Dragonstone. By making Stannis the Lord of Dragonstone, Robert affirmed his brother's status as heir (which he was, until Joff's birth a few years later). Robert could just as lawfully retained both castles for his sons, and made Joffrey the Prince of Dragonstone and Tommen the Lord of Storm's End. Giving them to his brothers instead was another instance of his great, but rather careless, generosity.
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Old March 21 2012, 08:50 PM   #690
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Ah, I won't contradict the author then.

Reinforces Robert's poor management skills, though.
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