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Old March 18 2012, 02:13 AM   #631
Anwar
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

That whole sequence was a dream Ned was having, not necessarily what truly happened there.

I'm still wondering how, if that was over Jon, they were so sure it'd be a boy. If it was a girl, I'm sure they'd all feel like real idiots and think "Aw damn, we should have sent one of us to go to Viserys just in case..."
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Old March 18 2012, 02:18 AM   #632
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

It may not have been literal, but it was written by Martin to supply clues; anything there is deliberate, so calling attention to why the Kingsguard are there and not anywhere else (and in particular, with Viserys) has a reason.

In terms of the sex of the baby, Rhaegar was presumably convinced that it would be "the Prince who was promised", hence, a male; the Kingsguard knights would obey his orders until it became apparent they were wrong (ie, if it was a girl, which it wasn't).
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Old March 18 2012, 05:21 AM   #633
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

But they really should have been with Aerys the whole time. Rhaegar took Barristan and 2 other KG with him to the Trident where they all died except for Barristan. Then they left Jaime alone with Aerys in KL while the three of them went to the Tower.

Aerys was still alive, they should've ALL been with him. And if they had already decided to take orders from Rhaegar over Aerys, then they were already all Oathbreakers so their actions no longer reflect the code of the KG.
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Old March 18 2012, 01:05 PM   #634
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Anwar wrote: View Post
There's the question of whether or not the rest of the Kingdoms would accept polygamy as a practice anymore from their Royal Family. In the past, I can see them accepting it because the Targaryens had dragons to force the issue but by the present they were gone. If the 7 Kingdoms all more or less decided that they would not recognize Rhaegar's marriage to Lyanna then that's that.
Well, there's no real proof anyway. Everyone who knows is dead. If Jon does become king it will be by right I'm trying to save you motherfuckers from a zombie apocalypse, not right of blood.

There's no guarantee that there's be any Kingdoms levft on Westeros once the White Walkers have made their move, much less a whole seven of them. It's quite possible that the Night's Watch could become the new ruling caste out of necessity rather than any desire for power.
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Old March 18 2012, 02:50 PM   #635
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Anwar wrote: View Post
Aerys was still alive, they should've ALL been with him. And if they had already decided to take orders from Rhaegar over Aerys, then they were already all Oathbreakers so their actions no longer reflect the code of the KG.
As the Crown Prince, Rhaegar was as entitled to Kingsguard protection as the King himself. So, no, they did not all need to be with Aerys.

hyzmarca wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
There's the question of whether or not the rest of the Kingdoms would accept polygamy as a practice anymore from their Royal Family. In the past, I can see them accepting it because the Targaryens had dragons to force the issue but by the present they were gone. If the 7 Kingdoms all more or less decided that they would not recognize Rhaegar's marriage to Lyanna then that's that.
Well, there's no real proof anyway. Everyone who knows is dead. If Jon does become king it will be by right I'm trying to save you motherfuckers from a zombie apocalypse, not right of blood.
Not all... Lord Howland Reed of Greywater Watch is still alive, and hasn't left his castle since returning from Robert's Rebellion and the Tower of Joy.
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Old March 18 2012, 05:43 PM   #636
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8lG_Kn_FTQ

New trailer love it, so soon
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Old March 18 2012, 05:59 PM   #637
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Here's the latest Daily Raven:

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Old March 18 2012, 06:24 PM   #638
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

superdeluxe wrote: View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8lG_Kn_FTQ

New trailer love it, so soon
Awesome. It makes me wish I had the season 2 boxset right beside season 1 right now.
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Old March 18 2012, 06:44 PM   #639
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

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Old March 18 2012, 07:09 PM   #640
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Anwar wrote: View Post
Aerys was still alive, they should've ALL been with him. And if they had already decided to take orders from Rhaegar over Aerys, then they were already all Oathbreakers so their actions no longer reflect the code of the KG.
Er, no, that's not how the Kingsguard works. They're sworn to protect and follow the orders of the entire royal family, and can be sent off to do whatever the royal family orders them to do (obviously the reigning monarch's orders supersede the others, but in the absence of countermands that doesn't matter). There are innumerable examples of that throughout the series. They most commonly stay close to members of the royal family, but have been shown doing other things all the time (Barristan's history includes a number of military expeditions where no members of the royal family are known to have been present, for instance).
There's the question of whether or not the rest of the Kingdoms would accept polygamy as a practice anymore from their Royal Family. In the past, I can see them accepting it because the Targaryens had dragons to force the issue but by the present they were gone. If the 7 Kingdoms all more or less decided that they would not recognize Rhaegar's marriage to Lyanna then that's that.
How is that "it"? The rightful Targaryen succession only matters at all inasmuch as the forces that believe themselves sworn to the rightful Targaryen succession and want to conquer Westeros for said right believe it. It's not an actual matter of legality, or something the Seven Kingdoms can contest; they've already gotten rid of the Targaryens, and will be forced to take them back at swordpoint. The question of the succession matters because Dany and other loyalists like Conington believe they're carrying out the legitimate succession, and if they found out that their candidates weren't rightfully king, there's a question of what they would then do. Dany, in particular.
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Old March 18 2012, 07:36 PM   #641
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Out Of My Vulcan Mind wrote: View Post
Here's the latest Daily Raven:
Wait... is that how you're supposed to pronounce Jaqen? Zhockin? I don't like that.
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Old March 18 2012, 10:11 PM   #642
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

There's another character profile out, this time for Robb Stark:

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Old March 18 2012, 10:19 PM   #643
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

The point about the Kingsguard is a point I've been making for a while elsewhere. The Kingsguard serves the King. The King can extend Kingsguard protection to his family. But ultimately, the King comes first. Jaime recalls listening to Aerys II abuse his wife and being told by another KG (Darry I think) that they are supposed to protect the Queen from everyone except the King.

If Aerys II did not order those 3 Kingsguard to be at the Tower of Joy, then Hightower, Dayne, and Whent were all oathbreakers. They chose the prince over the king, which is not the purpose of the Kingsguard. If they're oathbreakers then Ned should hold them in contempt like he holds Jaime.
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Old March 18 2012, 11:04 PM   #644
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

One purpose I could see to Aerys ordering them to the Tower would be for them to guard Lyanna so Aerys could use her as a hostage against Ned and Robert, just like how Aerys was using Elia and his grandchildren (and Jaime) as hostages against the Dorne and Lannisters. Maybe if they saw that she was pregnant (and ran into Rhaegar while there) they realized it was safer for her health that she stay at the Tower and they would also stay there to keep her captive on Aerys' orders.

Rhaegar told Jaime, more or less, that he planned to overthrow his father after he defeated Robert so he went along with it since he figured they wouldn't harm her and once he was King he would just order them to stand down.
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Old March 19 2012, 12:28 AM   #645
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

DarthPipes wrote: View Post
If Aerys II did not order those 3 Kingsguard to be at the Tower of Joy
Of which there is no indication that he didn't - indeed, Aerys sent three other of his Kingsguard off to war with Rhaegar and just kept Jaime with him. Given the way they acted in Ned's dream, and the recollections of the surviving members of the Kingsguard (Barristan and Jaime) there was nothing unusual about them being there. They were exactly where they were supposed to be. Their being there was only unusual to Ned, not knowing the likely reason for their presence at the Tower after Aerys died.
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