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Old March 17 2012, 03:19 AM   #616
Anwar
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

If it's true, I hope nothing comes of it because Jon decides he will stay with the Night's Watch. Fits the deconstructionist nature of ASOIAF that the "Secret Prince" cliche ends up being irrelevant.
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Old March 17 2012, 03:22 AM   #617
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

It's the only theory that really fits the mystery backstory pieces we've been given, at least from the clues.

Jon's death at the end of book five (and presumed resurrection) seems pretty specifically something to release him from his vows, so I doubt he'll stay with the Watch at the end (whether there'll be a need for a Watch at all at the end is open to question, if the White Walkers are defeated and the Wildlings are gone, there doesn't seem to be much for the Watch to do on a day-to-day basis).
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Old March 17 2012, 04:00 AM   #618
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Honestly once you figure it out the whole thing seems obvious. Unless it is all one giant misdirection done just to spite the people who really study the books, there is no other answer.
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Old March 17 2012, 04:40 AM   #619
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

setvenharis wrote: View Post
So...who believes the theory that Jon Snow is not the bastard son of Eddard Stark, but the son of Rhaegar Targaryn and Eddard's sister Lyanna?
I figured that out halfway through book 1. Nothing I have come across has given me reason to believe otherwise. Why would the Kingsguard stay at the Tower of Joy guarding Lyanna Stark while Prince Viserys was on Dragonstone?
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Old March 17 2012, 07:30 AM   #620
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Ayelbourne wrote: View Post
Did they translate "Stark"? Because it exists in both german and english but with different meanings.
No, you already said it, it's a word that exists in german so they kept it. It's obvious they really tried to keep as many names as possible, they were only changed when they almost jumped of the page and screamed english. I don't even remember family names other than the Greyjoys and the various bastard's names being changed, it's mostly locations and nicknames (Littlefinger, Hot Pie).
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Old March 17 2012, 02:52 PM   #621
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

CaptainCanada wrote: View Post
It's the only theory that really fits the mystery backstory pieces we've been given, at least from the clues.

Jon's death at the end of book five (and presumed resurrection) seems pretty specifically something to release him from his vows, so I doubt he'll stay with the Watch at the end (whether there'll be a need for a Watch at all at the end is open to question, if the White Walkers are defeated and the Wildlings are gone, there doesn't seem to be much for the Watch to do on a day-to-day basis).
I guess my problem is that it's just too cliche for the story of ASOIAF, and Jon was never all that great a character as anyone else involved in the War away from the Wall.
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Old March 17 2012, 08:52 PM   #622
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Yeah I don't think GRRM - after spending so much time deconstructing fantasy cliches - is going to have a cliche ending to the saga.
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Old March 17 2012, 10:39 PM   #623
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Who says it will even play into the ending? It may remain a mystery to the characters and only become clear to the readers. Jon is either dead or soon to be Azor Ahai reborn which I suspect will change the landscape a bit.
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Old March 17 2012, 10:43 PM   #624
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

If it does become known, it poses interesting challenges to some of the characters. Daenarys, most obviously, has based her whole mission on the belief that she is the rightful heir to the throne - now, obviously she's planning the conquer the place to assert her right, but she feels she's right in doing that. If (somehow) it's proved that she isn't the rightful heir, what does she do?
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Old March 17 2012, 11:04 PM   #625
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Well, Jon would still be a bastard, since Lyanna and Rhaegar weren't married. Thus, he'd have no claim to the throne.

Also, Dany's claim would be weaker than Aegon's as well, if he is the real deal.
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Old March 17 2012, 11:08 PM   #626
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Ayelbourne wrote: View Post
Well, Jon would still be a bastard, since Lyanna and Rhaegar weren't married.
A lot of the theories assume that they were, since otherwise there wouldn't be any real need for the Kingsguard to be present (since nobody there was in the royal family).
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Old March 17 2012, 11:13 PM   #627
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

I don't see why Rhaegar couldn't issue orders to the Kingsguard, being heir to the throne and all.
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Old March 17 2012, 11:22 PM   #628
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Well, maybe, but Ned specifically calls attention to the fact that the Kingsguard's presence at the Tower is odd because there are no members of the royal family present and the presumed heir (Viserys) is elsewhere. If Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love, as many people speculate, there's no reason for them not to have been married, especially with the kid on the way.
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Old March 18 2012, 12:47 AM   #629
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

There's the question of whether or not the rest of the Kingdoms would accept polygamy as a practice anymore from their Royal Family. In the past, I can see them accepting it because the Targaryens had dragons to force the issue but by the present they were gone. If the 7 Kingdoms all more or less decided that they would not recognize Rhaegar's marriage to Lyanna then that's that.
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Old March 18 2012, 01:49 AM   #630
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

CaptainCanada wrote: View Post
Well, maybe, but Ned specifically calls attention to the fact that the Kingsguard's presence at the Tower is odd because there are no members of the royal family present and the presumed heir (Viserys) is elsewhere. If Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love, as many people speculate, there's no reason for them not to have been married, especially with the kid on the way.
In addition, those three Kingsguard made it very clear to Ned that they were in their proper place. Being at the Tower of Joy could only be their proper place if they were convinced that Viserys was not the heir to the Iron Throne, not to protect a mistress and/or bastard.

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.

"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."

"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."

"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

"We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold.

Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends."
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