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Old March 16 2012, 04:29 PM   #46
sonak
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Re: Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

well, Janeway also made decisions for her crew that she had no business making. She stranded them in the DQ. If she really believed in helping the Ocampa, she could have let her crew go home, then stayed behind to set the explosives on the array.

The Maquis were drafted, if you remember. They didn't sign on to be members of her crew, so she should have shown greater flexibility in making decisions involving them, since unlike her Starfleet crew, they weren't even there even somewhat voluntarily.

From their perspective, Janeway stranded them and then drafted them.
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Old March 16 2012, 06:15 PM   #47
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Re: Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

sonak wrote: View Post
I'm "prejudiced" and "dishonorable" because I disagree with your argument. I think that says more about you than about me.
Once again you're wrong. You're dishonorable because you aren't satisfied with disagreeing with my argument, but because you ignore my argument, assume you are correct and insist that your whims are superior to my judgments. Prejudice is clouding your thinking. Unless of course you're just making crap up, just because it amuses you

I think it's interesting that you're defending Janeway in an instance when even the show isn't defending her. We as viewers are clearly meant to be with Chakotay and shocked by her actions, as she's clearly being driven by rage and self-righteousness at that point and not reason. She locks up her XO for preventing a murder and threatens to lock Tuvok up for daring to disagree with her. At the end of the episode, she even admits that she went too far and that Chakotay might have been justified had he attempted to relieve her.
I highlighted "murder" in this quote because that's the only kind of argument you've made. Consider the recent murders in Afghanistan. Suppose that guy who has reportedly confessed had some buddies who stole most of the armory's ammunition then went on to continue the murder spree, while the local villagers besieged the base where the soldier who confessed was held. You assume that the soldiers in the base have an obligation to keep killing the
attacking villagers, even while the soldier refuses to tell where the others plan to go to commit more murders, and that letting the guy face justice is the same thing as murder.

This is not just absurd, it is geniunely contemptible. That's why this episode is trash. Moore couldn't see where Chakotay did anything wrong, but that's the sort of thing that shows what a scumbag he is.

I wonder what she'd have to do to appear like a tyrant to you. Clearly, deliberately allowing unarmed prisoners in one's custody to be murdered is not a big deal to you.
Lessing being killed is not murder but justice. The assumption that aliens (aka foreigners) can't demand justice is repulsive.
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Old March 16 2012, 09:05 PM   #48
sonak
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Re: Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

stj wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
I'm "prejudiced" and "dishonorable" because I disagree with your argument. I think that says more about you than about me.
Once again you're wrong. You're dishonorable because you aren't satisfied with disagreeing with my argument, but because you ignore my argument, assume you are correct and insist that your whims are superior to my judgments. Prejudice is clouding your thinking. Unless of course you're just making crap up, just because it amuses you

I think it's interesting that you're defending Janeway in an instance when even the show isn't defending her. We as viewers are clearly meant to be with Chakotay and shocked by her actions, as she's clearly being driven by rage and self-righteousness at that point and not reason. She locks up her XO for preventing a murder and threatens to lock Tuvok up for daring to disagree with her. At the end of the episode, she even admits that she went too far and that Chakotay might have been justified had he attempted to relieve her.
I highlighted "murder" in this quote because that's the only kind of argument you've made. Consider the recent murders in Afghanistan. Suppose that guy who has reportedly confessed had some buddies who stole most of the armory's ammunition then went on to continue the murder spree, while the local villagers besieged the base where the soldier who confessed was held. You assume that the soldiers in the base have an obligation to keep killing the
attacking villagers, even while the soldier refuses to tell where the others plan to go to commit more murders, and that letting the guy face justice is the same thing as murder.

This is not just absurd, it is geniunely contemptible. That's why this episode is trash. Moore couldn't see where Chakotay did anything wrong, but that's the sort of thing that shows what a scumbag he is.

I wonder what she'd have to do to appear like a tyrant to you. Clearly, deliberately allowing unarmed prisoners in one's custody to be murdered is not a big deal to you.
Lessing being killed is not murder but justice. The assumption that aliens (aka foreigners) can't demand justice is repulsive.

Ah, well if that's your argument it's just silly. First off, Lessing is a member of Starfleet and a citizen of the UFP. Even today, many countries won't extradite to places that have a death penalty.

Why should Janeway turn a citizen with legal rights over to be murdered without trial?

Further, as Guy Gardner pointed out, Janeway didn't turn over Tom in "thirty days," Tuvok in "prime factors," etc. And she violated local law in "Counterpoint."


To you, what she did in THOSE cases was repulsive, right?

You can't win the argument, because either you're being arbitrary and inconsistent or you're admitting that Janeway often made up the rules as she went along.
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Old March 17 2012, 12:35 AM   #49
Guy Gardener
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Re: Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

But Janeway made a deal.

She promised the beasties that she would feed them Ransom's "ship" which is a question of semantics that there was less than the full compliment on board when they went to chow down.

ANKARI: They say they want the humans to die.
TUVOK: A difficult place to start a negotiation.
JANEWAY: Will they understand me?
ANKARI: Yes.
JANEWAY: We didn't do this to you. We're trying to stop the humans who did.
ANKARI: They don't believe you would harm your own kind.
JANEWAY: We have rules for behaviour. The Equinox has broken those rules by killing your species. It's our duty to stop them.
ANKARI: Give us the Equinox. Give us the Equinox! They insist on destroying the ones who are responsible.
TUVOK: We will punish them according to our own rules. They will be imprisoned. They will lose their freedom.
JANEWAY: All right! If you stop your attacks, I'll deliver the Equinox to you!.
TUVOK: Captain.
JANEWAY: I know what I'm doing, Tuvok.
TUVOK: These beings would destroy Captain Ransom and his crew.
JANEWAY: What's their answer?
TUVOK: Your behaviour is irrational. We could find another solution.
JANEWAY: I've already confined my first Officer to quarters. Would you like to join him? Well?
ANKARI: They agree,
So really, she was either lying because her word is worth shit, or she had every intention of handing over the crew of the Equinox, and he situation just got out of control, afterwhich the beasties lost count and let it slide...

I've made the argument before that Noah Lessing was already dead when she tied him to that chair and tired to live up to her promises to the beasties to kill him. It didn't matter what he felt or what Noah had to live through before she killed him, because after she killed him, which she was going to do, soon and eventually, because her word isn't shit, he would be dead, and all his trauma would be moot.

So really?

How do you torture a corpse?

(Please. No instructional videos from Youtube. Thank you.)
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Last edited by Guy Gardener; March 17 2012 at 12:59 AM.
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Old March 17 2012, 06:15 AM   #50
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Re: Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

The Captain is the boss. That is all.
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Old March 17 2012, 07:09 AM   #51
Guy Gardener
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Re: Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

Rudy Ransom.
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Old March 17 2012, 08:21 AM   #52
Gov Kodos
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Re: Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

Mistress Janeway, a tyrant,hmm? More important, how good does it hurt, though?
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Old March 17 2012, 08:23 AM   #53
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Re: Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
Mistress Janeway, a tyrant,hmm? More important, how good does it hurt, though?
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Old March 17 2012, 08:25 AM   #54
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Re: Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

Two men have been tied to chairs and tortured by a sexy woman on Voyager.

Janeway was one of those women.
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Old March 17 2012, 11:37 AM   #55
lurok
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Re: Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

EMH: As chief medical officer I have the authority to relieve you of your command.
JANEWAY: You're not going to do that.
EMH: If, in my medical opinion, your judgment has been impaired, I can. And I will.
JANEWAY: Try it and I'll shut down your programme.
EMH: That threat in itself is evidence of your unstable condition.
JANEWAY: I am sorry, Doctor. I've been operating on instinct for so long I did not think before I spoke. I have no intention of deactivating you. But I won't stay in this mess hall.
EMH: Is that final?
JANEWAY: Final.
EMH: Then you leave me no choice. Captain Kathryn Janeway, under Starfleet medical regulation one twenty one, section A, I, the Chief Medical officer, do hereby relieve you of your active command, effective immediately. Have a seat.
JANEWAY: How do you plan to implement this protocol, Doctor? Mister Tuvok doesn't have a security team, both the brigs have been destroyed, and with the internal force fields offline you'll have a hell of a time keeping me confined. You'd better grab a phaser, because before I give up command you'll have to shoot me.
EMH: You realize this incident will be noted in my official logs. By refusing my orders you risk a general court-martial.
JANEWAY: Compared to what I've been through the past few months, a court-martial would be a small price to pay. If we make it back home I'll be happy to face the music.
Not quite on par with Kirk's feigned outburst at Spock in Enterprise Incident, but close.
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Old March 17 2012, 11:54 AM   #56
Gov Kodos
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Re: Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Two men have been tied to chairs and tortured by a sexy women on Voyager.

Janeway was one of those women.
I'm expecting the Law and Order: Starfleet CMJ theme to start now.
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Old March 18 2012, 06:28 AM   #57
AuntKate
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Re: Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

sonak wrote: View Post
well, Janeway also made decisions for her crew that she had no business making. She stranded them in the DQ. If she really believed in helping the Ocampa, she could have let her crew go home, then stayed behind to set the explosives on the array.

The Maquis were drafted, if you remember. They didn't sign on to be members of her crew, so she should have shown greater flexibility in making decisions involving them, since unlike her Starfleet crew, they weren't even there even somewhat voluntarily.

From their perspective, Janeway stranded them and then drafted them.
Actually, it was the Caretaker that stranded them, and many others before them (like the Equinox). Janeway didn't have to offer them help. She could have left them high and dry, but she didn't.

We can't assume that their attempt to use the Caretaker's array would have been successful or that the Kazon would have given them enough time to figure out how to do it.

Once the captains decided to cooperate, Chakotay committed the Maquis to Voyager when he crashed their ship into the Kazon ship.

I guess it's just a matter of perspective.
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Old March 18 2012, 07:32 AM   #58
Guy Gardener
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Re: Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

Kathryn was legally obligated to let the Ocampa suck it.

Kathryn was legally obligated to let the Kazon loot and plunder Ocampa and Caretakers Array.

The Kazon conquered Ocampa a generation earlier, the Ocmapa. even in hiding, were slaves who couldn't look after themselves, and Caretaker was a transient serial rapist with no claims to local space who's property became free salvage to the first way farer who planted a flag on that array, after he had died.

These were strictly internal matters Sraefleet had no business interfering with, because it dramatically altered the balance of power in the Quadrant, and it is Starfleets modus operandi not to be responsible for bullshit that's going to snowball, I mean bullshitball.

From the Pilot.
JANEWAY: Stand by.
CARETAKER: The self-destruct programme has been damaged. Now this installation will not be destroyed. But it must be. The Kazon must not be allowed to gain control of it. They will annihilate the Ocampa.
(The Caretaker shrinks into a hand-sized rock. Janeway picks it up.) TUVOK: Shall I activate the programme to get us back?
JANEWAY: And what happens to the Ocampa after we're gone?
TUVOK: Captain, any action we take to protect the Ocampa would affect the balance of power in this system. The Prime Directive would seem to apply.
JANEWAY: Would it? We never asked to be involved, Tuvok, but we are. We are.
Caretaker could have blown up the array at any point over the last 1000 years but he was a pussy. He didn't want to blow his home up, till after he died because the old bastard thought it might hurt. Wussy, pussy wussy. He relied on an alarm clock to do the job post mortem. Think of all the times an alarm clock fucked you over and you were late for work or school. He was an idiot. If Caretaker had just accepted suicide as a good call, the Ocampa would have been fine till their food, water and power ran out and they starved to death.

Actually.

caretaker didn't have to be on the array when it blew up.

he can fly through space (when he's healthy) or he could have gone and to begin dying on Ocampa weeks earlier after blowing up the array, and not shortened his life span a lick, even if his natural environment is a tangent dimension he could just slide into at will.

Caretaker was vain.

He loved his home too much to see it destroyed.

Tuvok knew how to send them home, but it would take a couple hours. Hours they didn't have because, there might have been thousands more Kazon ships on their way... But there wasn't. Kathryn's paranoia inflated the potency of the villain at hand because she assumed that she was dealing with Romulans, not Pakled.

Tuvok said that it was a Prime Directive concern, and Janewy said "fuck it"

The Pilot is black and white.

Janeway is a Villain.
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Old March 18 2012, 07:34 AM   #59
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Re: Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

Given the condition of the ship and crew on arrival, I wouldn't trust the array all that much to send me back in one piece to the AQ.
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Old March 18 2012, 08:12 AM   #60
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Re: Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

Compared to a 70 year journey through what appears to at least half of it being Borg, Romulan and Klingon Space?

Possibly dying instantly, or possibly dying in 69 years, 11 months and 20 days at the hands of a Romulan Disrupter?

Hard choice.
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