Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

[stj]

No. Voyager always emphasized the hierarchical nature of the military. The easy assumption that the starship captain will have the kind of authority modern military commanders (or Hollywood producers) have is essentially rather conservative, but modern Trek has always been much more conservative than Star Trek. But given that standard, Janeway was not tyrannical at all. Every single lead character if I remember correctly defied her at one point or another. She is actually rather forgiving, but maybe circumstances forced this?

At any rate, I know of no reason whatsoever to think Janeway was tyrannical and was for a long time puzzled by these attacks on the character. Insofar as these people try to offer evidence, it usually rests upon the interpretation of the Prime Directive. Unfortunately no one actually knows what this requires (whether they imagine they do or not,) so it is impossible to lay any weight upon alleged arbitrariness in the character's personal interpretation.

The few other instances offered in support usually display extreme misunderstanding of what actually happened on screeen. For instance relieving Chakotay in the Equinox two-parter was not tyrannical, not even extreme, because Chakotay had just helped stop a hot pursuit of a Federation vessel actively engaged in criminal activity. The script wrote a miracle to get him off the hook so they could find the Equinox again but that was the arbitrary action in this episode.

And so forth.

[sonak]

stj wrote:

---

No. Voyager always emphasized the hierarchical nature of the military. The easy assumption that the starship captain will have the kind of authority modern military commanders (or Hollywood producers) have is essentially rather conservative, but modern Trek has always been much more conservative than Star Trek. But given that standard, Janeway was not tyrannical at all. Every single lead character if I remember correctly defied her at one point or another. She is actually rather forgiving, but maybe circumstances forced this?

At any rate, I know of no reason whatsoever to think Janeway was tyrannical and was for a long time puzzled by these attacks on the character. Insofar as these people try to offer evidence, it usually rests upon the interpretation of the Prime Directive. Unfortunately no one actually knows what this requires (whether they imagine they do or not,) so it is impossible to lay any weight upon alleged arbitrariness in the character's personal interpretation.

The few other instances offered in support usually display extreme misunderstanding of what actually happened on screeen. For instance relieving Chakotay in the Equinox two-parter was not tyrannical, not even extreme, because Chakotay had just helped stop a hot pursuit of a Federation vessel actively engaged in criminal activity. The script wrote a miracle to get him off the hook so they could find the Equinox again but that was the arbitrary action in this episode.

And so forth.

And I suppose that to you, Janeway broke no rules when she was willing to let Lessing die?

[AuntKate]

The_Baron wrote:

---

One word.

tuvix!

Tuvix is the Kobayashi Maru of the Delta Quadrant. There was no right answer. It was truly a lose/lose situation. Whichever choice she made could be severely criticized, and she knew it. The look on Janeway's face as she left Sickbay says it all for me. She was conflicted; if she hadn't been conflicted by such an awful decision, she would have been a heartless tyrant. She isn't.

[AuntKate]

sonak wrote:

---

And I suppose that to you, Janeway broke no rules when she was willing to let Lessing die?

You are making an assumption here (that she would have let him die) which is not necessarily true. Because Chakotay intervened, we don't know that she would have allowed the little beastie to kill Lessing.

But, I have another issue with that--Lessing is a traitor who was willing to sacrifice Voyager and its entire crew to save his own skin. I'm not condoning torture, but I can understand why Janeway might have been a bit testy about being betrayed.

But, no matter what, we don't know if Janeway would have allowed him to die.

[AuntKate]

The Overlord wrote:

---

I think a problem is Janeway seemed to be more intolerant of differing opinions then other captains were. Janeway gave Harry Kim a reprimand for getting a space STD, busted Tom Paris down to ensign for a year and half and had him sent to solitary confinement for 30 days. She also had Chakotay sent to his room during the Equinox story. Stuff like that made her seem like a control freak.

I've been around the military most of my adult life. Military commanders are control freaks--it is their greatest strength and most serious flaw. Those three actions were warranted, and I commend Janeway for not letting her personal regard for them to interfere with what she had to do.

I think it's curious that posters here seem to remember so clearly these moments of control, and forget the many more moments that Janeway acted out of compassion and sympathy for her subordinates. She let Chakotay take a shuttle out alone for his meditations; she let B'Elanna risk her life to go back to her near death experience in "The Barge of the Dead"; she let the doctor send his program back to Earth so he could help his creator, Dr. Zimmerman; she let Tom get his own little ship to play with in "Alice." I could go on and on.

Maybe the question should be this: why do so many posters on TrekBBS seem to think of only those moments when Janeway was most in control? Could be a deep answer.

[teacake]

AuntKate wrote:

---

Tuvix is the Kobayashi Maru of the Delta Quadrant.

Good way of putting it though I was personally never conflicted over the dilemma. There could be an element of "duh, of course they will be separated it's tv" at work there though.

And I don't think she would have let Lessing die. She would have risked herself to save him from the beastie at the last moment and there would have been a Trek speech about what humanity stands for.

[stj]

sonak wrote:

---

And I suppose that to you, Janeway broke no rules when she was willing to let Lessing die?

As everyone knows, Chakotay's interference prevented us from knowing what Janeway would have done a few seconds later. But this simple fact is commonly ignored. But let us hypothesize that Janeway, whether intentionally or by misjudgment, had actually let Lessing die.

I reject your argument from depravity that equates Lessing's imaginary death with an injustice. Lessing murdered people, of an unusual and technologically primitive sort, it is true. But he was still a murderer. It takes barefaced gall to whine about Janeway breaking rules in the purely hypothetical case of Lessing's death, while blandly pretending that she didn't also break rules in allowing Lessing his freedom.

Lessing got away with murder because Janeway was a tyrant? She was too soft on him. Letting him off just because he was following Ransom's orders was highly objectionable. He was even worse than the Maquis.

As for the assumption that Lessing was tortured, Janeway didn't personally threaten or harm him. She merely left him outside Voyager's protection so that he would face the fellows of his victims. The notion that humans are so privileged that ugly primitives have no right to exercise justice on them, even upon murderers, is absurd. And it may be a science fiction story, but that way of thinking still smacks of something really ugly.

Thinking about the ethical implications of Tuvix is a waste of time. Insofar as it is a metaphor for abortion, the episode falsifies the issue by assuming the fetus is indeed a person. Insofar as it is a metaphor for capital punishment, the episode falsifies the issue by making the death of one literally restore the lives of two others. Insofar as it's not a metaphor at all, the science is too bloody stupid to take seriously at all, no matter how sensational it all is.

[sonak]

stj wrote:

---

As everyone knows, Chakotay's interference prevented us from knowing what Janeway would have done a few seconds later. But this simple fact is commonly ignored. But let us hypothesize that Janeway, whether intentionally or by misjudgment, had actually let Lessing die.

I reject your argument from depravity that equates Lessing's imaginary death with an injustice. Lessing murdered people, of an unusual and technologically primitive sort, it is true. But he was still a murderer. It takes barefaced gall to whine about Janeway breaking rules in the purely hypothetical case of Lessing's death, while blandly pretending that she didn't also break rules in allowing Lessing his freedom.

Lessing got away with murder because Janeway was a tyrant? She was too soft on him. Letting him off just because he was following Ransom's orders was highly objectionable. He was even worse than the Maquis.

As for the assumption that Lessing was tortured, Janeway didn't personally threaten or harm him. She merely left him outside Voyager's protection so that he would face the fellows of his victims. The notion that humans are so privileged that ugly primitives have no right to exercise justice on them, even upon murderers, is absurd. And it may be a science fiction story, but that way of thinking still smacks of something really ugly.

Thinking about the ethical implications of Tuvix is a waste of time. Insofar as it is a metaphor for abortion, the episode falsifies the issue by assuming the fetus is indeed a person. Insofar as it is a metaphor for capital punishment, the episode falsifies the issue by making the death of one literally restore the lives of two others. Insofar as it's not a metaphor at all, the science is too bloody stupid to take seriously at all, no matter how sensational it all is.

so to you, because Lessing committed a crime that means that Janeway is freed from the obligation to treat him as if he is still under the law.

She can do whatever she likes because her self-righteousness gives her the authority to do so.

Sorry, but I can't take that argument seriously.

[stj]

Some quotes from the real argument, with the parts that were in particular ignored highlighted.

stj wrote:

---

For instance relieving Chakotay in the Equinox two-parter was not tyrannical, not even extreme, because Chakotay had just helped stop a hot pursuit of a Federation vessel actively engaged in criminal activity.

As everyone knows, Chakotay's interference prevented us from knowing what Janeway would have done a few seconds later. But this simple fact is commonly ignored. But let us hypothesize that Janeway, whether intentionally or by misjudgment, had actually let Lessing die.

I reject your argument from depravity that equates Lessing's imaginary death with an injustice. Lessing murdered people, of an unusual and technologically primitive sort, it is true. But he was still a murderer. It takes barefaced gall to whine about Janeway breaking rules in the purely hypothetical case of Lessing's death, while blandly pretending that she didn't also break rules in allowing Lessing his freedom.

Lessing got away with murder because Janeway was a tyrant? She was too soft on him. Letting him off just because he was following Ransom's orders was highly objectionable. He was even worse than the Maquis.

As for the assumption that Lessing was tortured, Janeway didn't personally threaten or harm him. She merely left him outside Voyager's protection so that he would face the fellows of his victims. The notion that humans are so privileged that ugly primitives have no right to exercise justice on them, even upon murderers, is absurd. And it may be a science fiction story, but that way of thinking still smacks of something really ugly.

It is neither law nor justice nor simple common decency to require that Lessing face only human justice for his murders. It is also a dishonorable way of assuming the conclusion, that Janeway did something tyrannical. That kind of fallacious argument is absurd but we still have to take it seriously in a way. To say something so foolish shows that there is some prejudice clouding the mind.

[Guy Gardener]

teacake wrote:

---

Good way of putting it though I was personally never conflicted over the dilemma. There could be an element of "duh, of course they will be separated it's tv" at work there though.

And I don't think she would have let Lessing die. She would have risked herself to save him from the beastie at the last moment and there would have been a Trek speech about what humanity stands for.

Think about this.

Imagine I grab hold of your hand and drag the both of us in front of an oncoming truck that couldn't possibly stop in time without killing us. But it's all right if you die only so long as I died or almost died trying to save you come the last second after I stop holding you in place to get squashed? How heroic is it for me to simply stop holding your hand?

Do I deserve a parade?

This reminds me of a quote from Happy Days...

Fonzie "Hey kid, I think I know your brother."

Kid "Yeah, really?"

Fonzie "In fact, I saved his life."

Kid "Really? How'd you do that?"

Fonzie "I stopped hitting him."

sonak wrote:

---

so to you, because Lessing committed a crime that means that Janeway is freed from the obligation to treat him as if he is still under the law.

She can do whatever she likes because her self-righteousness gives her the authority to do so.

Sorry, but I can't take that argument seriously.

TUVOK: I must advise you that under Starfleet Directive one zero one you do not have to answer any questions.
SUDER: No. No, there's no point in denying it anymore. I used a two kilo coil spanner. He was sitting at the impulse system control panel. Didn't even look up when I moved in behind him and I swung the spanner as hard as I could.
TUVOK: Crewman, I suggest you speak to counsel.

I've pulled out this quote endless times to remind people about directive zero one zero, but i don't think I've really taken in the full context of a word like "counsel".

There are lawyers on Voyager.

LAWYERS!!!

The Kazon were right!

EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!

[teacake]

Guy Gardener wrote:

---

Think about this.

Imagine I grab hold of your hand and drag the both of us in front of an oncoming truck that couldn't possibly stop in time without killing us. But it's all right if you die only so long as I died or almost died trying to save you come the last second after I stop holding you in place to get squashed? How heroic is it for me to simply stop holding your hand?

Do I deserve a parade?

This reminds me of a quote from Happy Days...

Fonzie "Hey kid, I think I know your brother."

Kid "Yeah, really?"

Fonzie "In fact, I saved his life."

Kid "Really? How'd you do that?"

Fonzie "I stopped hitting him."

I didn't say she was "heroic". I don't think she would deserve a parade if she had to jump between Lessing and the Beastie when she was responsible for him being there in the first place. That there would be a Star Trek speech about what humanity stands for would be Janeway's mea culpa moment in that episode.

"I lost sight of what we're out here for Chakotay.. and I have to live with that." No not a real quote but sounds like something Janeway would say.

You're an irresponsible asshole for dragging me in front of that truck Guy Gardener, and quite possibly a mean and vengeful person too. How many trucks did I murder and consume to make you think I deserved that?

[Guy Gardener]

Letting that headcase (this week she was a super headcase, usually: not so much.) keep her job was a 40 trombone parade.

She was not in a good place, and should have at least gotten a medical certificate before being allowed to resume duties.

When Equinox, ducked into that planet with the nasty atmosphere and Voyager followed in hot pursuit, which ripped Voyager a new one, I was aghast at how deeply she was ahabbing it. Janeway had three choices. Fire off a dozen torpedoes, which cannot miss at that range, until Ransom surrenders or dies, wait in orbit until Ransom runs out of food, power and water, which given the shit kicking Equinox had taken couldn't be more than a few hours, even after Janeway spent a day or two fixing Equinox up to spec, or you do what janeway did, cripple her own ship for no tactical gain what so ever because hot pursuit into a starship blender 'feels' good.

Janeway was emotionally compromised because Ransom betrayed her faith in the uniform.

Regulation 619: The commanding officer must relieve themselves of command if their current mission leaves them emotionally compromised and unable to make rational decisions

[sonak]

stj wrote:

---

Some quotes from the real argument, with the parts that were in particular ignored highlighted.

It is neither law nor justice nor simple common decency to require that Lessing face only human justice for his murders. It is also a dishonorable way of assuming the conclusion, that Janeway did something tyrannical. That kind of fallacious argument is absurd but we still have to take it seriously in a way. To say something so foolish shows that there is some prejudice clouding the mind.

I'm "prejudiced" and "dishonorable" because I disagree with your argument. I think that says more about you than about me.


I think it's interesting that you're defending Janeway in an instance when even the show isn't defending her. We as viewers are clearly meant to be with Chakotay and shocked by her actions, as she's clearly being driven by rage and self-righteousness at that point and not reason. She locks up her XO for preventing a murder and threatens to lock Tuvok up for daring to disagree with her. At the end of the episode, she even admits that she went too far and that Chakotay might have been justified had he attempted to relieve her.

I wonder what she'd have to do to appear like a tyrant to you. Clearly, deliberately allowing unarmed prisoners in one's custody to be murdered is not a big deal to you.

[Guy Gardener]

Picard always stated that he was wrong and that the God of the Edo, by federation law was allowed and indeed expected and congratulated to execute Wesley in TNG Justice. His arument to the contrary was "You are right, now go fuck yourself."

But then if one says that Janeway should have fed the equinox 5 to the beasties for dinner, then she should have handed Tom over in 30 days, and she should have handed Tuvok over in Prime factors and they all should have gone to a concentration camp in Counterpoint for traffiking.

Somehow icheb figured out that Janeway taught him to respect the laws of other cultures, which is why he volunteered for execution after being caught tresspassing in some dick head aliens back yard, after the ship became threatened by said dickhead in Q2.

[JanewayRulz!]

Starship Captains are all tyrants.

It's their job to make the final decision. That's okay when they always choose correctly, not so "ok" when they choose incorrectly.

37's

JANEWAY: Evansville has offered to let any of our crew stay.
CHAKOTAY: What will you do about that?
JANEWAY: Maybe this is one of those decisions that the captain has to make for the entire ship.
CHAKOTAY: You may have a problem if a lot of people want to stay.
JANEWAY: I know that, but at the same time I can't take a vote every time there's a major decision to be made. And yet, we're a long way from Starfleet, and a lot of the rules and regulations I've learnt to uphold seem distant as well. Am I the only one who's so intent on getting home? Is it just me? Am I leading the crew on a forlorn mission with no real hope of success?

The problem with being the King... or Queen of the starship... with great power comes great responsibility...

Sacred Ground

Magistrate [on viewscreen]: Well, you've certainly done your research, Captain. I'm familiar with the story. I heard it as a child.
JANEWAY: It suggests that there's still a chance for Kes.
Magistrate [on viewscreen]: You're talking about a very specific case. Nevad was able to claim responsibility for the prince as a father and as a king. That's why the spirits were willing to listen to him.
JANEWAY: The Captain of a starship is fully responsible for every member of her crew.
Magistrate [on viewscreen]: So she is.
JANEWAY: And on that basis, I'd like to go through the ritual myself.

Great responsibilty to individual crewmen and to the ship itself. To protect them from unspeakable risks... even if it means...

JANEWAY 2: Hello. I'm Captain Kathryn Janeway. Welcome to the Bridge.
(DESTRUCT SEQUENCE ENGAGED Time Remaining 2, 1
KaBOOM!)

Great risks... even if it means going against what your valued crewmen advise...

Scorpion I

CHAKOTAY: I didn't want the others to hear this, but I think what you're proposing is too great a risk.
JANEWAY: How so?
CHAKOTAY: There's a story I heard as a child, a parable, and I never forgot it. A scorpion was walking along the bank of a river, wondering how to get to the other side Suddenly he saw a fox...

But the reason why crews tend to follow "tyrants" is that they usually get results. They usually are open to reinterpretation of the data...

Scorpion II

CHAKOTAY: I was linked to a Collective once, remember? I had a neuro-transceiver embedded in my spine. I know who we're dealing with. We've got to get rid of that last Borg and take our chances alone.
JANEWAY: It won't work. This isn't working, either. There are two wars going on. The one out there, and the one in here, and we're losing both of them.
CHAKOTAY: It will be your undoing.
JANEWAY: What?
CHAKOTAY: Our conflicted nature. Our individuality. Seven of Nine said that we lack the cohesion of a Collective mind, that one day it would divide us and destroy us, and here we are, proving her point.

But heavy hangs the head that wears the crown...

Night

CHAKOTAY: We were faced with a difficult choice. We had the means to get home but using it would've put an innocent people at risk, so we decided to stay.
JANEWAY: No, no, no. I decided to stay. I made that choice for everyone.
CHAKOTAY: We're alive and well, and we've gathered enough data about this quadrant to keep Starfleet scientists busy for decades. Our mission's been a success.
JANEWAY: The very same words I've been telling myself for the past four years. But then we hit this void and I started to realize how empty those words sound.
CHAKOTAY: Kathryn.
JANEWAY: I made an error in judgment, Chakotay. It was short-sighted and it was selfish, and now all of us are paying for my mistake.

But even tyrants need their crew to help pull them back even when they can't do it themselves...

CHAKOTAY: You've known her longer than anyone. Have you ever seen her like this?
TUVOK: Only once. It was during her first year as a Commander on the USS Billings. She sent an away team to survey a volcanic moon. Their shuttle was damaged by a magma eruption and three crew members were severely injured. The next day she returned to the moon, alone, to complete the survey. She wanted the crew to know that their suffering had not been in vain. She could have been killed.
CHAKOTAY: Seeking redemption.
TUVOK: Precisely. Captain Janeway's methods are unorthodox. It is her strength as a leader but, unfortunately, it is also her greatest weakness.
CHAKOTAY: Stubborn as a Klingon.
TUVOK: To put it mildly.

And yes... she does make mistakes. I don't believe she planned to kill the man who helped steal the shield generator from her crew, leaving the Voayger crew who had once saved HIS ship, to die at the hands of aliens revenging themselves upon any starfleet crew for the atrocites the Equinox crew perpetuated upon their species. I believed her when she said...

Equinox II

CHAKOTAY: He's a loyal officer. He's not going to betray his Captain. Put up the shields!
JANEWAY: He'll break.
CHAKOTAY: Captain!
JANEWAY: As you were.
COMPUTER: Level nine authorisation required.
CHAKOTAY: Damn it, Kathryn!
JANEWAY: You're panicking. He's going to talk.
[Bridge] TUVOK: Captain, a fissure is opening in that section.
JANEWAY [OC]: Understood.

The fissure was opening, the aliens were about to come through, and Janeway was sure Lessing would give up his Captain to save his own life. But Chakotay, a loyal officer, who would give UP his own life for Kathryn's KNEW different. He knew Lessing would not break, and that he would die, and Voyager would not only be in the same boat but potentially worse off... because once Janeway realized she killed the man, her guilt would take over and make her a less effective Captain.

JANEWAY: Will you look at that. All these years, all these battles, this thing's never fallen down before.
CHAKOTAY: Let's put it back up where it belongs.

Janeway was a tyrant, she was the Captain, it was her job to get them home and to keep them on the path of "starfleet righteousness" so that when they got home they could hold their heads high and reintergrate into their society.

The Void

JANEWAY: Target his shields and fire. Lock onto whatever belongs to us and transport it to the cargo bay.
SEVEN: I'm detecting large quantities of food on his supply deck.
PARIS: Maybe we should take it while we have the chance. JANEWAY: Is it ours?
SEVEN: No, but our own reserves are running out.
PARIS: Valen wouldn't hesitate to take it from us.
JANEWAY: No, he wouldn't. We've got what's ours. Reverse course.

She's a tyrant.. who's goal is to get as many of her people home as possible. You may not agree with her... you may not like her... you may think she's evil incarnate.

But if she was YOUR Captain... it means the odds are you WILL get home, and in one piece.

Endgame I

JANEWAY: I'm remembering a young Ensign who wanted to fly into a Borg-infested nebula, just to explore the remote possibility that we might find a way home.
KIM: If I remember correctly, you stopped me.
JANEWAY: We didn't know then what we know now.
KIM: Our technology may have advanced, but...
JANEWAY: I'm not talking about technology, I'm talking about people. People who weren't as lucky as you and me. You said you and the Doctor wanted to keep things in the family, but our family's not complete anymore, is it. I'm asking you to trust my judgment, Harry, one last time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVgPq...eature=related