The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

[the G-man]

Servo wrote:

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The fact is, if Rick did know that Shane was gonna come back, then it strains credibility that he'd suddenly forget ...

Has anyone on the show turned that quickly in front of Rick? IIRC, everyone that he's seen turn did so in a matter of hours (or even days), not minutes.

Unless the CDC guy specifically told Rick "everyone who dies comes back and sometimes in seconds", Rick could easily assume he had at least a few more minutes to finish off Shane.

Furthermore, sometimes people don't react to things immediately, especially in a stressful situation.

[sojourner]

And Rick was more than "a little upset" at killing Shane if you watch the scene again. He was damn near out of his mind.

[Servo]

the G-man wrote:

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Has anyone on the show turned that quickly in front of Rick? IIRC, everyone that he's seen turn did so in a matter of hours (or even days), not minutes.

Unless the CDC guy specifically told Rick "everyone who dies comes back and sometimes in seconds", Rick could easily assume he had at least a few more minutes to finish off Shane.

Furthermore, sometimes people don't react to things immediately, especially in a stressful situation.

The CDC guy told Rick in open dialogue that reanimation can occur anywhere between 3 minutes and 8 hours of death. Even if Rick thought he had a few minutes to deal with Shane coming back, it still strains credibility that someone who just killed his best friend to protect himself and his family would suddenly become so careless.

[Dorian Thompson]

There's a difference between being careless and being in shock. We haven't seen their history, but Rick and Shane have been friends since high school and they're what? 30-35 years old? That's a long time to be friends and partners on the force. There's a strong, deep bond there. Knowing that Shane planned to kill him and having to put a knife in his gut and twist--a human being who has empathy and who feels would be traumatized by having to do that. Rick's still human. We the viewers are just accustomed to Star Trek style stoicism in male characters. Rick's reaction is more realistic. He's not an army special forces soldier trained to stay "frosty."

[Servo]

Dorian Thompson wrote:

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There's a difference between being careless and being in shock. We haven't seen their history, but Rick and Shane have been friends since high school and they're what? 30-35 years old? That's a long time to be friends and partners on the force. There's a strong, deep bond there. Knowing that Shane planned to kill him and having to put a knife in his gut and twist--a human being who has empathy and who feels would be traumatized by having to do that. Rick's still human. We the viewers are just accustomed to Star Trek style stoicism in male characters. Rick's reaction is more realistic. He's not an army special forces soldier trained to stay "frosty."

If Rick knew that Shane would come back, he would have had that in his head while he was luring Shane in. He had to know that killing Shane without a headshot would mean he'd have to deal with him coming back. Sure, there's some emotion there, but you are not telling me that a guy who made the decision to kill his best friend to protect himself and his family, suddenly lets his guard down so much that his former friend turned zombie gets the drop on him.

I know you and a lot of the fans want "you're all infected" to be what Jenner said to Rick, but you're rewriting a character and making him act stupid to fit in with your theory. Isn't that what you complain bad writers do in other shows?

And please, don't presume to tell me what types of characters I'm accustomed to. You may be used to "stoic Star Trek style male characters", but Star Trek isn't my benchmark for character actions and development.

[SG-17]

Maybe Jenner told Rick that everyone is a carrier but Rick didn't really understand what that meant?


Also even though it has almost nothing to do with the group I'd like to find out what happened to the ISS Astronauts. If they weren't evacuated when the plague first started they could still be alive at this point since, at least by "TS-19" the plague only has been global for 63 days. They haven't even spent a full month at the farm yet.

Maybe the Astronauts would be in contact with survivor colonies, maybe some major islands survived totally intact like Hawaii or Guam.

[Silent_Bob]

I've yet to be convinced that Jenner did reveal everyone was a carrier to Rick. Everything that points to him knowing can also be explained away, as this thread has shown. Given how the group have started to notice the dead rising without being bitten, it looks like we'll get an answer as to whether Rick knows fairly soon.

SG-17 wrote:

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Also even though it has almost nothing to do with the group I'd like to find out what happened to the ISS Astronauts. If they weren't evacuated when the plague first started they could still be alive at this point since, at least by "TS-19" the plague only has been global for 63 days. They haven't even spent a full month at the farm yet.

Maybe the Astronauts would be in contact with survivor colonies, maybe some major islands survived totally intact like Hawaii or Guam.

If you haven't already, check out Max Brook's 'World War Z'. It features exactly the situation you describe with the ISS astronauts.

[Kytee]

I love reading this board because I love to see how different folks interpret the same show. As far as the question 'Did Jenner tell Rick they were all infected' I take the Occams Razor approach.

- While its possible Rick decided it was in his families best interest to not tell them everyone is infected even though he knew that ; I think its more likely he did not tell them because he did not know. ( I find it hard to reconcile Rick suppressing that vital information, but also deciding its worth the risk to let his child possess his own fire arm )

- While its possible Rick was trying to mislead Shane when he speculated about the two guards being infected via scratches ; I think its more likely he was genuinely speculating.

- While its possible Rick suggested possibly hanging Randall to make him seem more humane, all the while intending to shoot him so he would not turn ; I think its more likely he did actually consider hanging Randall as he did not know he would turn.

- While its possible Rick forgot about the possibility of Shane turning in the heat of the moment ; I think its more likely he did not know that would happen.

- While its possible Rick shot the big guy in the bar a third time because he knew he would turn, I think its equally possible he was putting the guy out of his misery.
( regarding police training; the Two-to-the-chest, assess , one-to-the-head ; is usually a body armor drill. After the first two shots, you assess your target, ONLY if he is still coming do you move on to a head shot. The assumption being that the target is wearing body armor. I think its also called the mozabique drill )

I dont think any one of these points, taken alone, definitively prove that Jenner did not tell Rick that everyone is infected. However, everything taken together, is enough to convince me.

I think it really comes down to all of us having different hopes and expectations for this show we love, I personally don't buy into the 'Rick died and came back' line of thinking, but I have to admit, it does explain his surviving at the hospital better than anything else. I love the fact that no one is safe, it gives the show an edge that I enjoy. I feel as soon as Rick becomes 'The One' then him, and at least his baby get a set of zombie proof 'Plot Armor'. From there the show becomes a show about how this immunity gets turned into a cure, and ditches the will humanity survive Angle.

-Kytee

[Servo]

Kytee wrote:

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- While its possible Rick decided it was in his families best interest to not tell them everyone is infected even though he knew that ; I think its more likely he did not tell them because he did not know. ( I find it hard to reconcile Rick suppressing that vital information, but also deciding its worth the risk to let his child possess his own fire arm )

This is pretty much my thinking too. Rick's whole deal this season has been his struggle with doing the right thing versus his need to protect his family and the group.
Now, telling everyone that they're all infected may destroy any hope the group had for something that resembles a normal future, but he would have weighed that against the danger of keeping them in the dark. What if someone dies while he's not around, and the group is oblivious to what's going to happen to that corpse? Suddenly they've got a walker slap bang in the middle of their safe haven. That puts his wife and kid in unnecessary danger, and I can't see Rick allowing that. It just doesn't fit with his character.

[DarthTom]

SG-17 wrote:

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at least by "TS-19" the plague only has been global for 63 days. They haven't even spent a full month at the farm yet.

This is one of my few gripes about the show. From what I've read the minimal amount of time to recover form an abdominal bullet wound is 4-6 weeks, but according to the show Carl is up and moving around just a few days later.

Not realistic.

[pork3]

DarthTom wrote:

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Not realistic.

The same can be said about people being reanimated following death by some mysterious preternatural force.

-Jamman

[DarthTom]

pork3 wrote:

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The same can be said about people being reanimated following death by some mysterious preternatural force.

-Jamman

That's true. However the difference for me is that the show stays consistent within the parameters of the fiction. In WD's case - the only thing that's is abnormal in this world is the dead reanimate - everything else within this fictional world is as we would expect.

A great example is in Trek when they would use the time travel reset button to solve continuity problems within the plot.

One of the best examples in Trek and worst episodes in all of the series was the Voyager episode Threshold where they break all of the basic rules established within the fiction itself through many different shows, movies, etc.

[Temis the Vorta]

SG-17 wrote:

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Maybe Jenner told Rick that everyone is a carrier but Rick didn't really understand what that meant.

Yeah Jenner didn't have time to explain everything. He probably just said, "you're all infected." How do you interpret that? We're all infected and therefore immune? We're all infected and therefore going to turn into zombies at any moment? Or maybe Jenner is just nuts or lying - how can you be infected and still apparently healthy and unaffected?

Now, telling everyone that they're all infected may destroy any hope the group had for something that resembles a normal future

Or he can tell everyone the good news that they don't have to worry about being nipped by a zombie because they're already resistant enough to the virus that it hasn't turned them into zombies already. Zombies can't kill with just a bite, they can only kill through "normal" means such as massive blood loss.

That's actually an improvement in their circumstances. They just need to be careful to always shoot anyone who dies through the head, but that's simple enough to adjust to. All the adults should be carrying loaded weapons at all times and this would be a good time to go hit up a sporting goods store for crossbows and start training everyone.

The one downer would be if the virus will eventually turn them into zombies while still living, without warning, because there's no defense against that. And I think that's the case, given the way Shane was depicted in the last episode. But they have no reason to know that yet, and that shoe won't drop till sometime next season at the earliest.

From there the show becomes a show about how this immunity gets turned into a cure, and ditches the will humanity survive Angle.

The ratings are strong and the show needs a plot arc that will keep it going for years. I'm having a grand old time right now watching the survival angle. They've got a new game to play for next season, with the impact of Dale's death inspiring them not to lose their humanity. That could form most of the plotline for next season, especially if they run into other survivors who will challenge that ethos.

They could easily save the "we're all going to turn into zombies while alive" angle till S3 and segue into Rick as the hope for the cure at the end of that season, or in S4. It's all about pacing. But simply sticking to the survival angle is going to run out of steam before the ratings do. Compared with other shows, this one has a very straightforward and simple premise, which is good, keeps things focused and powerful, but it's just too simple for a show that AMC probably wants to run for years - and that, well managed, can run for years.

[DarthTom]

Temis the Vorta wrote:

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]The ratings are strong and the show needs a plot arc that will keep it going for years. I'm having a grand old time right now watching the survival angle. They've got a new game to play for next season, with the impact of Dale's death inspiring them not to lose their humanity. That could form most of the plotline for next season, especially if they run into other survivors who will challenge that ethos.

I think the 'survival arc,' for a television audience needs some search for a cure and achievable goals to that end to keep people's interest. Moving from community to community and killing off new and existing characters IMO would become old.

That works well for the comic books but not for TV where your average show [save the Simpsons] doesn't last past 6 to 7 years.

A great recent example would be the series 24 where the never ending terrorist threat became tiring for many people. Another in Trek is in DS9 where the Dominion story arc even got old for Trek fans.

[Temis the Vorta]

I was getting pretty tired of the Dominion War arc by S7, that's for sure. I was happy they were wrapping things up, but I wouldn't have been happy in S6.

A good example of the opposite problem - a show with too much needless complication, or complication that is dumped on us too soon - is Caprica. That could have been very powerful as the story of two men fighting over the same "daughter" - one of them the real father, the other the creator of her virtual doppleganger - but the series was front-loaded with an indirect conflict between the protagonists that took forever to take shape, gangsters, religious terrorists, talk show hosts, polygamy, teenage angst - AUGH!

TWD is doing it the right way so far. Start simple, drop a few very subtle foreshadowing hints along the way of future complications, and then reveal the complications only as needed, to keep things interesting and fresh.