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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old March 7 2012, 03:56 AM   #16
exodus
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Re: Tuvok: the only adult on Voyager

teacake wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Seriously?
We're adults that post online to bicker about a fictional TV show. Many here still collect action figures, play video games or watch cartoons.
Anyone on the outside looking in I think would say we're all holding onto our adolescences a little longer.
Paris & Kim aren't any different than more than half us here.
Just imagine what we would get up to if we had the holodeck!!
I'm giddy as a school boy just over the thought.
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Old March 7 2012, 04:03 AM   #17
teacake
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Re: Tuvok: the only adult on Voyager

exodus wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Seriously?
We're adults that post online to bicker about a fictional TV show. Many here still collect action figures, play video games or watch cartoons.
Anyone on the outside looking in I think would say we're all holding onto our adolescences a little longer.
Paris & Kim aren't any different than more than half us here.
Just imagine what we would get up to if we had the holodeck!!
I'm giddy as a school boy just over the thought.
I'm sure we'd all be playing ice hockey and re-fighting the Alamo! Yee haw!
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Old March 9 2012, 02:41 AM   #18
Itachi
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Re: Tuvok: the only adult on Voyager

teacake wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post

Just imagine what we would get up to if we had the holodeck!!
I'm giddy as a school boy just over the thought.
I'm sure we'd all be playing ice hockey and re-fighting the Alamo! Yee haw!
Nah, not me. I'd spar with Bruce Lee... fuck yeah!
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Old March 11 2012, 05:03 AM   #19
exodus
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Re: Tuvok: the only adult on Voyager

teacake wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post

Just imagine what we would get up to if we had the holodeck!!
I'm giddy as a school boy just over the thought.
I'm sure we'd all be playing ice hockey and re-fighting the Alamo! Yee haw!
I think a Jack Bauer/Jason Bourne interactive holodeck scenario would be what I'd do.
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Old March 11 2012, 05:30 AM   #20
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Re: Tuvok: the only adult on Voyager

I'd go look at alien planets. ALIEN PLANETS!!
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Old March 11 2012, 11:40 PM   #21
IntrepidMan
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Re: Tuvok: the only adult on Voyager

Returning to the OP...

exodus wrote: View Post
As far as Tuvok. I found he could be very immature in his own way. The fact he was a senior officer being groomed to one day be a captain, he showed great selfishness when it came to many of the emotional issues when dealing with the crew. Many times Janeway had to order him to attend ships functions because its expected of senior officers. It reflects badly on the captain if her chief of security is unwilling to associate with his staff for moral support.
He also showed poor diplomatic skills when it came to dealing with Neelix. Nobody really liked Neelix when he first joined the crew but Janeway, yet they all were polite to him except Tuvok. Not very mature.
I wouldn't call Tuvok selfish for behaving this way. He is just not very gregarious and does not like spending his free time with the rest of the crew. And I can't say I blame him--I wouldn't want to socialize with Paris, Kim, or Neelix myself. In fact I would probably avoid them, just like Tuvok does. Just like Worf, come to think of it. Do you think Work is selfish, or that his behavior reflects poorly on Picard or Sisko? No--he just likes to be left alone.

And I would argue that Tuvok is there for moral support when someone needs it. I can't name the episodes off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure there are moments when Tuvok bonds with Neelix and helps out others, like B'Lanna, with meditation, etc.

He also offers council to Chakotay and generally treats him with respect. In fact, I would argue that he treats Chakotay better than Chakotay treats him. What does that say about his level of maturity?

exodus wrote: View Post
Paris & Kim aren't any different than more than half us here.
I know--that's my problem with the characters. I guess I just don't like it when grown men act like teenage boys.
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Old March 12 2012, 03:01 AM   #22
exodus
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Re: Tuvok: the only adult on Voyager

IntrepidMan wrote: View Post
Returning to the OP...

exodus wrote: View Post
As far as Tuvok. I found he could be very immature in his own way. The fact he was a senior officer being groomed to one day be a captain, he showed great selfishness when it came to many of the emotional issues when dealing with the crew. Many times Janeway had to order him to attend ships functions because its expected of senior officers. It reflects badly on the captain if her chief of security is unwilling to associate with his staff for moral support.
He also showed poor diplomatic skills when it came to dealing with Neelix. Nobody really liked Neelix when he first joined the crew but Janeway, yet they all were polite to him except Tuvok. Not very mature.
I wouldn't call Tuvok selfish for behaving this way. He is just not very gregarious and does not like spending his free time with the rest of the crew. And I can't say I blame him--I wouldn't want to socialize with Paris, Kim, or Neelix myself. In fact I would probably avoid them, just like Tuvok does. Just like Worf, come to think of it. Do you think Work is selfish, or that his behavior reflects poorly on Picard or Sisko? No--he just likes to be left alone.
Yes, Worf is being selfish and Sisko called Worf on it in "Rules of Engagement". The crew was having a celebration and Worf didn't want to attend. Sisko told Worf that wearing the rank of command, that you were expected to put on a good face and show up to social events to give your crew moral support because that's what expected of a officer in a command position, even if it's the last thing you want to do.. Janeway called Tuvok out during "Alter Ego" for the same reason. Being that Tuvok is nearly 100 and a professor at the Academy, Janeway never should of had to remind him of this fact.
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Old March 12 2012, 05:16 AM   #23
teacake
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Re: Tuvok: the only adult on Voyager

I bet they don't have to do that kind of stuff on Vulcan ships. As usual the Federation expects human values to be the ones everyone puts themselves out for.
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Old March 13 2012, 02:00 AM   #24
exodus
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Re: Tuvok: the only adult on Voyager

teacake wrote: View Post
I bet they don't have to do that kind of stuff on Vulcan ships. As usual the Federation expects human values to be the ones everyone puts themselves out for.
Excellent point.
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Old March 13 2012, 05:48 AM   #25
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Re: Tuvok: the only adult on Voyager

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Starfleet is only a military organization when the mission requires it. And from what I know of my military friends, yes, acting like a juvenile idiot is sometimes exactly what happens. It's not like they do it while they're in the middle of a crisis. Voyager isn't just their place of work; it's their home.
Just because Star Fleet isn't a military organization doesn't mean its not an organization that doesn't demand professionalism.

If some alien diplomat was visiting and some star Fleet officer thought it would funny to throw a drink in his face, I would think that person would be punished for such behavior. Also if some ensign decided to wear an "I'm with stupid t-shirt" I think he would he sent back to quarters to change.

There times where Tuvok comes across as only the sane person on the ship. Harry Kim is the worse offender, he really comes off as a simpering man child. He never really developed into a good seasoned officer, he managed to stay a green ensign for 7 years. Frankly there should been episode where he proves himself, saves the ship and gets a promotion, that would have shown more character growth then him remaining a green ensign for 7 years.
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Old March 13 2012, 07:34 AM   #26
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Re: Tuvok: the only adult on Voyager

Tuvok is chronologically the oldest person on that ship though in relative age, he's only the 2nd oldest. The oldest is the old gray-haired black dude in the blue uniform who was always seen in the mess hall (semi-retired?) between something like "Parturition" and right before "The Killing Game". Once you notice him, it's quite hard to not notice him in subsequent episodes.
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Old March 13 2012, 07:43 AM   #27
teacake
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Re: Tuvok: the only adult on Voyager

I always notice him too. There should be more visibly older humans on starships. There were, iirc, several in ST:XI on the Kelvin.
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Old March 13 2012, 05:13 PM   #28
Thorius
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Re: Tuvok: the only adult on Voyager

teacake wrote: View Post
Apparently adolescence is getting longer with people not taking on an adult life to they get past 25 sometimes. Umpteen years in college, bad economy keeps you living with parents etc..
On the other hand, Star Trek regularly portrays 8 and 9 year old children studying calculus, programming, engineering, at levels which would be good for most 2nd or 3rd year undergrad students (approx age 20) for contemporary humans. In the Star Trek universe, human mental development would seem to be about twice as rapid.

I mean, you see occasional exceptional students even right now in the real world, but they are truly the exception, not the rule, whereas in Trek, they seem to be pretty much the "normal" kids.
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Old March 14 2012, 12:58 AM   #29
teacake
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Re: Tuvok: the only adult on Voyager

Thorius wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Apparently adolescence is getting longer with people not taking on an adult life to they get past 25 sometimes. Umpteen years in college, bad economy keeps you living with parents etc..
On the other hand, Star Trek regularly portrays 8 and 9 year old children studying calculus, programming, engineering, at levels which would be good for most 2nd or 3rd year undergrad students (approx age 20) for contemporary humans. In the Star Trek universe, human mental development would seem to be about twice as rapid.

I mean, you see occasional exceptional students even right now in the real world, but they are truly the exception, not the rule, whereas in Trek, they seem to be pretty much the "normal" kids.
Ever see very early paintings of Mary and baby Jesus where baby Jesus looks like a gnarly adult? Apparently people actually had a hard time painting infants faces accurately so just made them little adults. I think Trek has the same problem, can't write kids so just make them all mini-adults and be done with it.
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Old March 14 2012, 02:12 AM   #30
exodus
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Re: Tuvok: the only adult on Voyager

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Just because Star Fleet isn't a military organization doesn't mean its not an organization that doesn't demand professionalism.
From what I'm aware the military was formed to keep the peace in hostile situations, not to advocate war. If that still holds true, then Starfleet is a military type institution. Starfleet officers may be scientist and explorers but you can't graduate from Starfleet Academy without combat training. Even the medical staff id trained to use weapons and hand to hand combat. Plus from what we've scene, officers like Riker, Worf, Sisko & Tuvok have little to no scientific knowledge but have tactical experience.

If some alien diplomat was visiting and some star Fleet officer thought it would funny to throw a drink in his face, I would think that person would be punished for such behavior. Also if some ensign decided to wear an "I'm with stupid t-shirt" I think he would he sent back to quarters to change.
Nobody ever look it that far.
Tom & Harry were goofs but they only pulled pranks on their fellow crewmen, during their off hours and never when any alien ambassador on board.
They were goofs, not stupid.
You can't punish someone for what they do on their off time unless It breaks some rule. Colleges and the military approve of hazing and pranks as long as it doesn't violate someones race, religion or sexual orientation.
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