Why was Kes written off the show?

[doubleohfive]

I can offer critical commentary and analysis of the content of the show itself. I don't think though, I have the right to tell other writers how to do their job.

[sonak]

doubleohfive wrote:

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The sky is blue. Are you going to question that? Probably not, because you can see the sky yourself.

Traffic in Hollywood is awful. Are you going to question that? Probably not. Perhaps you've been here. Perhaps you hear about it from locals or others who have visited.

"We wrote Kes off the show, because there weren't many stories left to tell." Are you going to question that? Of course you are. Because you (the general you, not you specifically, sonak) think you know how to write for television or how a character should be portrayed.

Let's put it another way: Would you tell a doctor to prescribe ritalin over buspar for some other patient? Of course not. Because you (again, the general you) are not a doctor.

Would you tell a fireman how to put out a blazing fire in a three-story complex in the middle of downtown? Of course not - you are not a firefighter.

There's a fine line between knowing what you want a character to do and writing it that way, versus understanding the intricacies of how a television series is written and run and all the other elements that get factored into it. Those of you railing against the dismissal of Jennifer Lien don't seem to be giving that part of this particular equation much consideration, and that's the point I'm simply trying to make.

1. The sky being blue is not on the level as a statement of "Kes is hard to write for." Silly comparison. One's a fact, one's a party line.

2. Writers are NOT like doctors, there is a history of successful writers who don't have extensive formal education in writing. There's no such case with doctors that I know of, the level of technical expertise is different. Silly comparison.

3. I have more to my skepticism than just disbelief for the heck of it. As I've written, Kes was NOT the original choice to leave, which you'd think she would be if she were so hard to write for. Secondly, there are a lot of good episodes that feature Kes, some in the third season, odd for a "difficult character to write for." And finally, I've seen nothing of this "Kes is hard to write for" stuff until AFTER she was dropped, which makes me skeptical.

Good reasons or not, it's more than just "I don't believe it because I think I could write awesome stuff for Kes."(I don't think that)

[You_Will_Fail]

Ok so we're not writers so we shouldn't dare question them whatever.

Anyway I still don't firmly believe that all the writers had much of a problem writing for Kes moreso than any other character.
However I definitely have no problem believing that studio research showed Kes to be a less than popular character on the show and that played a major role in ditching the character.
And considering what Kenneth Biller said about the studio being the one pushing to drop Kes, I believe that definitely played a much bigger part than her character allegedly being difficult to write.

"Kes was hard to write for and wasn't working as a character" sounds much better than "The studio found Kes wasn't popular among the important demographics, and Garret Wang is our poster boy for diversity".

[teacake]

doubleohfive wrote:

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Again, no. I'm saying - if people think there are more stories that could have been told, they should tell them.

I'm still waiting for an answer to my time frame question. People "should" answer me.

Wang is slated for the axe, to make room for an additional character.

Wang gets voted beautiful by People magazine.

Lien is axed instead of Wang.

Party line says "Kes was difficult to write for".

What's the time for all this? If she was that difficult to write for why did they want to get rid of Wang who only had to say technobabble filler?

Now what if we heard:

Our first choice was Wang because he is always late and has a bad attitude and not important to the show. Our second choice, which we tossed around when considering who to axe is Lien because Kes is hard to write for. BUT now that Wang is supposedly hot we are going with our second choice.

That would all make perfect sense. See how a time line makes it all less grey and open to accusations of lying and murder (oh wait, that was the TNG thread..)

[You_Will_Fail]

I made a thread ages ago (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=128891) outlining some DS9/VOY story ideas, and one of them did actually involve Kes. I mean she's the go-to for psychic stories, so to be honest there's a lot of possibility there. Its called "Into the Fold" and it involves Voyager being captured by a race of beings that uses telepathy as a weapon. They send most of the crew of Voyager into slavery, Tuvok/Vorik into servitude (as a lower level telepath) and discover that Kes has the power to amplify and extend their own telepathic abilities, so blackmails her into assisting them in a major military campaign. While the Voyager crew attempt to escape, Kes becomes more and more corrupted by the power she's gaining.

[teacake]

I like that story line YWF. It gets everyone out of the ship, it's gritty, it's horrible (the slavery) and I'm also keen to see Kes corrupted.

[spot_loves_data]

doubleohfive wrote:

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I can offer critical commentary and analysis of the content of the show itself. I don't think though, I have the right to tell other writers how to do their job.

Offering critical commentary and content analysis means "telling writers how to do their job." And that's fine. There's nothing sacrosanct about television scripts. The writers put their work out there for mass consumption - it's fair game for any sort of criticism we can throw at it.

You_Will_Fail wrote:

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An interesting snippet from an interview with Kenneth Biller,
http://scifiandtvtalk.typepad.com/sc...en-biller.html

^Good link. Here's the bit about Kes's departure:

When Voyager’s fourth season began, Biller and the rest of the show’s writing team had to deal with the departure of original castmember Jennifer Lien and the arrival of Jeri Ryan as Borg-turned-babe Seven of Nine. “It’s always sad to see somebody go,” says Biller. “I think the character of Kes was really fascinating and provided us with some terrific story material. I wrote the previously mentioned Before and After around her character and Brannon wrote a show called Cold Fire in which Kes explores her mental powers.

“So Kes was interesting in that sense, but I think the show needed a jolt at that point. We knew that we wanted to bring a new character in and, frankly, it was really the studio that was not so keen on continuing with Kes’s character. I think Jennifer is a fine actress and I certainly enjoy the episodes I wrote involving her, but that’s showbiz and that’s what happens. Things change, people leave and the show has to continue.

“I don’t know that we had to get rid of a character to bring in Jeri Ryan, although nine regular characters are a lot to service on any show. If we had added another one it would have taken screentime away from the rest.

[Lynx]

Therin of Andor wrote:

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Perhaps because they weren't getting the performances they imagined? I dunno, but I do know several people who worked with her found her rather tricky to communicate with. Some actors and characters just fail to click with the writing team.

As I mentioned, you can see them tinkering with Kes all through the series: her "elogium", the break up with Neelix, moving from gardening to nursing, discovering powers, pairing her with the EMH, then Tuvok, changing her hair and costuming, etc.

They really didn't have to rationalize anything about her dismissal. The producers had to let a character go in order to be able to afford to add Jeri Ryan. They narrowed down to the two characters/actors that caused them problems (be they discipline problems or writing problems, or whatever) and chose Lien to go when Wang got the "People" accolade. The writers say the character was hard to write for, and the many changes to the character over the years seems to bear that out.

Similarly, they let Gates McFadden go in TNG. Publicly, the character "wasn't working" and they recast for a different approach to the CMO. As we found out later, there was friction on the set caused by delays due to McFadden's very fine hair losing its style under the hot lights (hence the choice of expensive wigs when she returned), plus the eventual declaration from the actress that there had been friction between her and someone on high in production.

Similarly, TOS let Grace Lee Whitney go. Publicly, the character "wasn't necessary" and they wanted Kirk not to be tied down to one romantic interest. As we found out later, from the actress, there had been an addiction to diet pills, and ah... friction between her and someone on high in production.

No, it doesn't "settle" anything. Wang was also causing a series of difficulties - supposedly not turning up on time, despite warnings, not being on hand to do the off-screen lines when a dialog partner was on camera, and refusing to do his "homework" shadowing the director when he was pressing to be allowed to direct.

When Wang wasn't able to be let go, they then had to choose another. The writers could probably see plenty of story possibilities for everyone else, and less for Kes. They'd already tried a range of stories with her, leaving perhaps only Miracle Life-Expectancy Extension to go, in order to avoid latex age makeups. Lien was supposedly already allergic to her ear tips, which is why they let Kes let her hair down.

Honestly, what you consider "tinkering" might be a strength for the character. They could write stories about her from many angles and perspectives. Compare that to Kim who remained "young Ensign Kim" for seven years.

Tales about Lien being a difficult person are pure speculation. Lien and Mulgrew were best friends. I don't think they would have been that if Lien had been difficult to work with. Besides that, if Lien had been a pain in the @** for her co-workers, someone would have mentioned that sooner or later. They didn't, instead all of them were sorry to see her go.

And obviously there were writers who liked the character too and could come up with good stories until they were ordrerd to be unable to write for the character.

[Lynx]

doubleohfive wrote:

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I can offer critical commentary and analysis of the content of the show itself. I don't think though, I have the right to tell other writers how to do their job.

As a fan, I think I have the right to do that since the fans actually are those who keep these people at work. If the fans abandon a show, then it's gone and the glorious writers are out of work.

As for critical commentary and analysis, if my analysis says that it was wrong to dump Kes/Lien, then I do think I have the right to express my opinion in that case.

[Therin of Andor]

sonak wrote:

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your posts on this seem to be "whatever the writers/producers say is right and good enough for me."

Yep. I've heard enough inside stories, from people who were actually there, to believe that what the creative team said they felt to be true, at least at the time, is true. These things are not decided on a whim, usually. Hollywood is big business and no one likes to get it wrong.

Jeri Ryan was a breath of fresh air for the franchise. A revitalised Kes was not going to have the same spike of interest.

Lynx wrote:

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Besides that, if Lien had been a pain in the @** for her co-workers...

When did I ever say that? I said that the writers were disappointed with the character and, despite numerous attempts to steer the character in very different directions, over three seasons, they were still unhappy with Kes.

Tales about Lien being a difficult person are pure speculation.

No, I know people who had to attempt to explain her bizarre actions at a convention to some very angry fans, who'd travelled interstate to see her. She's a very shy woman who continued to attempt to do conventions, even though she'd realised she was unsuited to that method of public speaking. And yet she kept accepting invitations.

[sonak]

Therin of Andor wrote:

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Yep. I've heard enough inside stories, from people who were actually there, to believe that what the creative team said they felt to be true, at least at the time, is true. These things are not decided on a whim, usually. Hollywood is big business and no one likes to get it wrong.

Jeri Ryan was a breath of fresh air for the franchise. A revitalised Kes was not going to have the same spike of interest.

When did I ever say that? I said that the writers were disappointed with the character and, despite numerous attempts to steer the character in very different directions, over three seasons, they were still unhappy with Kes.

No, I know people who had to attempt to explain her bizarre actions at a convention to some very angry fans, who'd travelled interstate to see her. She's a very shy woman who continued to attempt to do conventions, even though she'd realised she was unsuited to that method of public speaking. And yet she kept accepting invitations.

Jeri Ryan did bring renewed attention to Voyager, but I think it would have been a lot cooler to see her interact with Kes than either Harry Kim or Neelix. And again, did she really bring them a lasting ratings bump or did it slide back to pre-Ryan levels after a while?

[You_Will_Fail]

No one is saying that Seven of Nine didn't revitalize Voyager. But that's pretty irrelevant to this discussion.

[Guy Gardener]

Revitalize is not the same as changed, and the ratings seem to say that she didn't increase ratings, they still steadily fell despite her amazing ta-tas...

She did nothing.

Jennifer was fired for a dog that wouldn't hunt.

[sonak]

Guy Gardener wrote:

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Revitalize is not the same as changed, and the ratings seem to say that she didn't increase ratings, they still steadily fell despite her amazing ta-tas...

She did nothing.

Jennifer was fired for a dog that wouldn't hunt.

agreed. I checked the ratings, and other than a VERY brief bump, they continued their pattern of slow decline and/or held steady. So yeah, she made pop culture a little more aware of Voyager perhaps, but she wasn't bringing in the big ratings.

[Guy Gardener]

I just wonder if Seven did create a new expanding audience pool that was offset by the core audience abandoning the show faster than Sevens rump could attract new punters, so that by the end the new core was mostly nothing but swooning letches hopelessly devoted to Anika's double dees.