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Old March 6 2012, 12:00 AM   #31
teacake
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Re: VOY Fans and Janeway in the VOY relaunch books (spoilers)

Lynx wrote: View Post
I get the impression that many of those who like the current direction of the books are those who didn't like the TV series and didn't like Janeway either.

As for books being canon or not, for a very long time I stated in several debates that I regarded the books as canon.

And look what I got for that!


Nothing in the books is canon until mentioned on screen. If Prime Spock drops some tidbit in a future movie or series about the prime timeline that confirms something in a relaunch book than that's canon but otherwise, it's all just stories. And yes I know Nimoy isn't going to be in anything else but someone in the JJ verse may quote something Prime Spock wrote some day that gives us something canonical about the prime universe that takes place post what we have seen on the screen so far.
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Old March 6 2012, 12:19 AM   #32
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Re: VOY Fans and Janeway in the VOY relaunch books (spoilers)

The word "canon" is misused anyway. It doesn't really mean anything, except to the writers, since it's just a constraint on what previous events they are obliged to avoid contradicting. Some novel lines impose additional constraints within themselves beyond canon.

The question should not be, Is it Canon? The question should be, is it a well-told story worthy of further exploration?
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Old March 6 2012, 12:22 AM   #33
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Re: VOY Fans and Janeway in the VOY relaunch books (spoilers)

We got it easy in Trek land, canon is simple with only a couple grey areas thanks to Roddenberry's apocrypha pronouncements. In SW there are canon layers.
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Old March 6 2012, 08:06 AM   #34
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Re: VOY Fans and Janeway in the VOY relaunch books (spoilers)

Lynx wrote: View Post
I get the impression that many of those who like the current direction of the books are those who didn't like the TV series and didn't like Janeway either.
Balderdash! Janeway was my favourite VOY character. But I also had no problem with her death creating a stronger, higher-profile relaunch.

I was more annoyed by Data's canonical demise, since his death did little/nothing to invigorate TNG.

teacake wrote: View Post
And Therin there are PLENTY of people who think otherwise...

Amazon reviews offer a fairly divided opinion
So... "fairly divided" is not "most".
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Old March 6 2012, 04:33 PM   #35
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Re: VOY Fans and Janeway in the VOY relaunch books (spoilers)

teacake wrote: View Post
We got it easy in Trek land, canon is simple with only a couple grey areas thanks to Roddenberry's apocrypha pronouncements. In SW there are canon layers.
George Lucas himself considers only the Star Wars movies and the Clone Wars cartoons to be canon. The Star Wars EU canon appears to be a marketing ploy, and in reality no more binding on the tv/movie SW canon than in Trek.

George Lucas wrote:
I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions.
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Old March 6 2012, 06:36 PM   #36
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Re: VOY Fans and Janeway in the VOY relaunch books (spoilers)

Lynx wrote: View Post
I get the impression that many of those who like the current direction of the books are those who didn't like the TV series and didn't like Janeway either.

As for books being canon or not, for a very long time I stated in several debates that I regarded the books as canon.

And look what I got for that!


Its YOUR fault!

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Old March 6 2012, 11:49 PM   #37
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Re: VOY Fans and Janeway in the VOY relaunch books (spoilers)

I've been thinking about it. Kirsten will probably do at least another couple of Voyagers, and there could be another one or two in the current mission - we are probably covered for the next few years but I'd expect Janeway back then...
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Old March 7 2012, 12:22 AM   #38
teacake
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Re: VOY Fans and Janeway in the VOY relaunch books (spoilers)

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
We got it easy in Trek land, canon is simple with only a couple grey areas thanks to Roddenberry's apocrypha pronouncements. In SW there are canon layers.
George Lucas himself considers only the Star Wars movies and the Clone Wars cartoons to be canon. The Star Wars EU canon appears to be a marketing ploy, and in reality no more binding on the tv/movie SW canon than in Trek.

George Lucas wrote:
I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions.
The fans have made it considerably more complicated than that:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canon...nuity_database

Synopsis:

G-canon: The latest versions of the six movies
T-canon: The CGI Clone Wars movie and TV series and the unproduced live-action TV series
C-canon: most of the modern (i.e. 1991 onwards) EU
S-canon: older EU that may be ignored by current authors
N-canon: non-canon, including deliberately hypothetical stories, etc.

Now that Treklit is cohesive there is the expectation that it will be a canon within itself. If someone writes a novel in which Janeway is alive set post B.D. with no reference to how this came to be it will cause a Treklit canon problem. Fans won't expect the novels to be taken into account if there is another tv show though, unlike the Clone Wars debates.

A quote from a SW friend of mine:

"The biggest problem is that fans get invested in details in the EU which are part of C-canon (but not T- or G-canon) and so technically are part of the SW continuity, at least from an EU POV. When T-canon alters a bit of EU continuity (such as the nature of the planet Ryloth) suddenly a fact in C-canon that has existed since the late '80s (IIRC) gets retconned away, causing much distress.

The truth is that C-canon is pretty unstable ATM, given that over seven hours of new superior-canon material is being produced per year, which is about 10 times more than when the prequels were in full swing. The EU voluntarily gives The Clone Wars unilateral power to alter EU continuity as it sees fit, but EU fans place the onus on Lucas and Filoni to refrain from using that power--it's totally backwards. In any case, the EU continuity is now in the position of being totally untrustworthy even in respect to itself, since anything could be rewritten from above at any moment, shattering the illusion of a cohesive universe."

Lucas also drew a direct parallel to Roddenberry's simple solution of if it's on screen it's canon and if it's in a book it's not canon, see this Lucas quote:

""There's three pillars: the father, the son and the holy ghost. I'm the father, Howard Roffman [president of Lucas Licensing] is the son and the holy ghost is the fans, this kind of ethereal world of people coming up with all kinds of different ideas and histories. Now these three different pillars don't always match, but the movies and TV shows are all under my control and they are consistent within themselves. Howard tries to be consistent but sometimes he goes off on tangents and it's hard to hold him back. He once said to me that there are two Star Trek universes: there's the TV show and then there's all the spin-offs. He said that these were completely different and didn't have anything to do with each other. So I said, 'OK, go ahead.'""

But it seems fans have a deeply vested interest in EU.

JJ really set himself free of it ever ending up like that in Trekland in bypassing the timeline of both onscreen and in books, LOL.

Anyway sorry for this SW interruption, hope someone found it interesting.
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Old March 7 2012, 06:58 AM   #39
Lynx
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Re: VOY Fans and Janeway in the VOY relaunch books (spoilers)

JanewayRulz! wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
I get the impression that many of those who like the current direction of the books are those who didn't like the TV series and didn't like Janeway either.

As for books being canon or not, for a very long time I stated in several debates that I regarded the books as canon.

And look what I got for that!


Its YOUR fault!

Well, sometimes I do believe that. Born under a bad sign, you know.
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Old March 7 2012, 07:03 AM   #40
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Re: VOY Fans and Janeway in the VOY relaunch books (spoilers)

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
I get the impression that many of those who like the current direction of the books are those who didn't like the TV series and didn't like Janeway either.
Balderdash! Janeway was my favourite VOY character. But I also had no problem with her death creating a stronger, higher-profile relaunch.

I was more annoyed by Data's canonical demise, since his death did little/nothing to invigorate TNG.

teacake wrote: View Post
And Therin there are PLENTY of people who think otherwise...

Amazon reviews offer a fairly divided opinion
So... "fairly divided" is not "most".
Sorry, but I can't see how killing of the main character of the show and omitting three others will create "a stronger, higher-profile relaunch".

As for the opinion about the assasination of Janeway, I do think that those who want Janeway alive and well are in the majority among the Voyager fans.
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Old March 7 2012, 09:01 AM   #41
Therin of Andor
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Re: VOY Fans and Janeway in the VOY relaunch books (spoilers)

teacake wrote: View Post
Now that Treklit is cohesive there is the expectation that it will be a canon within itself.
Nope. The "Crucible" trilogy and "Children of Kings" happily cherrypicked what bits of current TrekLit they wished to ignore.

David Mack said the other day he did not attempt to use the "New Frontier: Turnabout" IDW mini-series when pulling all the Mirror Universe storylines together for a novel finale, "Rise Like Lions".
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Old March 7 2012, 08:33 PM   #42
Relayer1
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Re: VOY Fans and Janeway in the VOY relaunch books (spoilers)

teacake wrote: View Post
KingDaniel wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
We got it easy in Trek land, canon is simple with only a couple grey areas thanks to Roddenberry's apocrypha pronouncements. In SW there are canon layers.
George Lucas himself considers only the Star Wars movies and the Clone Wars cartoons to be canon. The Star Wars EU canon appears to be a marketing ploy, and in reality no more binding on the tv/movie SW canon than in Trek.

George Lucas wrote:
I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions.
The fans have made it considerably more complicated than that:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canon...nuity_database

Synopsis:

G-canon: The latest versions of the six movies
T-canon: The CGI Clone Wars movie and TV series and the unproduced live-action TV series
C-canon: most of the modern (i.e. 1991 onwards) EU
S-canon: older EU that may be ignored by current authors
N-canon: non-canon, including deliberately hypothetical stories, etc.

Now that Treklit is cohesive there is the expectation that it will be a canon within itself. If someone writes a novel in which Janeway is alive set post B.D. with no reference to how this came to be it will cause a Treklit canon problem. Fans won't expect the novels to be taken into account if there is another tv show though, unlike the Clone Wars debates.

A quote from a SW friend of mine:

"The biggest problem is that fans get invested in details in the EU which are part of C-canon (but not T- or G-canon) and so technically are part of the SW continuity, at least from an EU POV. When T-canon alters a bit of EU continuity (such as the nature of the planet Ryloth) suddenly a fact in C-canon that has existed since the late '80s (IIRC) gets retconned away, causing much distress.

The truth is that C-canon is pretty unstable ATM, given that over seven hours of new superior-canon material is being produced per year, which is about 10 times more than when the prequels were in full swing. The EU voluntarily gives The Clone Wars unilateral power to alter EU continuity as it sees fit, but EU fans place the onus on Lucas and Filoni to refrain from using that power--it's totally backwards. In any case, the EU continuity is now in the position of being totally untrustworthy even in respect to itself, since anything could be rewritten from above at any moment, shattering the illusion of a cohesive universe."

Lucas also drew a direct parallel to Roddenberry's simple solution of if it's on screen it's canon and if it's in a book it's not canon, see this Lucas quote:

""There's three pillars: the father, the son and the holy ghost. I'm the father, Howard Roffman [president of Lucas Licensing] is the son and the holy ghost is the fans, this kind of ethereal world of people coming up with all kinds of different ideas and histories. Now these three different pillars don't always match, but the movies and TV shows are all under my control and they are consistent within themselves. Howard tries to be consistent but sometimes he goes off on tangents and it's hard to hold him back. He once said to me that there are two Star Trek universes: there's the TV show and then there's all the spin-offs. He said that these were completely different and didn't have anything to do with each other. So I said, 'OK, go ahead.'""

But it seems fans have a deeply vested interest in EU.

JJ really set himself free of it ever ending up like that in Trekland in bypassing the timeline of both onscreen and in books, LOL.

Anyway sorry for this SW interruption, hope someone found it interesting.
Then we are indeed fortunate that (bar any possible utterances of Spock Prime) Trek Prime is to all intents and purposes done...
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Old March 7 2012, 09:53 PM   #43
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Re: VOY Fans and Janeway in the VOY relaunch books (spoilers)

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
Then we are indeed fortunate that (bar any possible utterances of Spock Prime) Trek Prime is to all intents and purposes done...
This sentence made me very sad.
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Old March 7 2012, 09:56 PM   #44
Sindatur
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Re: VOY Fans and Janeway in the VOY relaunch books (spoilers)

teacake wrote: View Post


The fans have made it considerably more complicated than that:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canon...nuity_database

Synopsis:

G-canon: The latest versions of the six movies
T-canon: The CGI Clone Wars movie and TV series and the unproduced live-action TV series
C-canon: most of the modern (i.e. 1991 onwards) EU
S-canon: older EU that may be ignored by current authors
N-canon: non-canon, including deliberately hypothetical stories, etc....Snip
Dang, and I thought complicated Time Travel Stories could be headache inducing, LOL.
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Old March 7 2012, 09:59 PM   #45
teacake
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Re: VOY Fans and Janeway in the VOY relaunch books (spoilers)

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Now that Treklit is cohesive there is the expectation that it will be a canon within itself.
Nope. The "Crucible" trilogy and "Children of Kings" happily cherrypicked what bits of current TrekLit they wished to ignore.

David Mack said the other day he did not attempt to use the "New Frontier: Turnabout" IDW mini-series when pulling all the Mirror Universe storylines together for a novel finale, "Rise Like Lions".
Well that's interesting. Still much of the relaunch is cohesive.
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