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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old March 4 2012, 01:50 AM   #1111
Ln X
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Everyone has missed this one simple fact; this episode is an emulation of TNG's Disaster. Except Starship Down does it better:

1. Better reason for all the crazy shit happening to the Defiant.
2. A greater sense of tension.
3. It all looks better.
4. Quark and the Karama guy were just brill.
5. Kira emotional pouring towards her beloved (and dying) Emissary.
6. It was a bit more memorable.
7. Worf's an insensitive prick.
8. Cooler setting in some... (er forgot; nebula?)

The only forced bits were Worf and O'Briens interactions mid-way through the episode. I loved Quark and that Karama guy! They were so awesome in disarming the torpedo; it still puts a grin on my face every time.

TNG's Disaster was let down by two things: one some random anamoly damages the ship, two the scenes with those children and Picard. Starship Down flows in a more logical way, and Disaster is only so impressive because it was a bit unprecendented when it aired in terms of Star Trek, whereas with this episode... (see the top-most paragraph)

This episode should be seven stars (possibly eight) as it is more than average, if it were average I would only find it somewhat riveting and gripping. This episode ain't great but it is somewhere in the good to very good range.
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Old March 4 2012, 02:38 AM   #1112
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

^So... Did you like it?

I do like it, and find it very re-watchable. I don't think it's great, but it's one of those episodes I can thrown on from time to time and enjoy.

It's true that it's pretty similar to Disaster, but is sufficiently rooted in the DS9 meta-story to not really feel all that derivative.
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Old March 4 2012, 03:23 AM   #1113
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I like Starship Down, and I can see the parallels with Disaster, but... I like Disaster better, sorry. Even the Picard and the kids stuff!
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Old March 4 2012, 05:52 PM   #1114
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I liked Starship Down, and Little Green Men.

Necessary Evil was the episode that I first watched of DS9 that got me interested, but Little Green Men was the episode that got me started on DS9, for real.
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Old March 5 2012, 06:37 PM   #1115
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
One question...who made that claim, Jadzia or Bashir?
Bashir made the claim, Jadzia half-heartedly denied it, then Bashir got the last word.


The Sword of Kahless (**½)

I'm a Terry Pratchett fan, because I figure if I'm going to be a nerd then I may as well go all the way into the depths of comic fantasy. My favourite of his novels is Men at Arms, a story about an assassin that acquires the Discworld's first and only gun but is unprepared for the magical power that such a weapon would hold over him. I think you can see where I'm going with this. So I like the core concept of this episode, but it needs an interesting story to hold it together. Men at Arms had that, The Sword of Kahless not so much. What starts out promising to be an epic quest ends up with three characters hunting spiny rats in the Star Trek cave set.

Is the sword of Kahless magical? According to the writers the answer is no, being in the presence of such an important artefact caused Worf and Kor's lust for power to consume them. Okay, I like that idea, Star Trek has done the whole alien influence thing enough times that it's refreshing that this episode chose to go another way. The problem with that decision however is that it makes both Worf and Kor look like massive tools and they have no excuse for it. Whatever about Kor, but Worf is a Starfleet officer and he should be able to control his more violent urges by now rather than acting like a child. The solution to the "problem" also seems like overkill. Just because Worf and Kor can't control themselves around the sword doesn't mean that all Klingons will act that way, but rather than man up and admit their failings they put all the blame on the sword and send it out into space, denying billions of Klingons their heritage. That's not a message I'm willing to get behind.

The first half of the episode is pretty good, and I do like that they bring back some continuity from TNG rather than inventing some new adversary for the heroes to fight. Overall, it's an interesting concept with a strong start that ends up getting lost in a cave somewhere.

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Old March 5 2012, 06:49 PM   #1116
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

The Sword of Kahless was very average for me. It starts off with a lot of talk that makes it sound like we're in for a treat, particularly as I enjoyed Blood Oath so much. Kor being back was a hoot, and I enjoyed having him back in season seven all over again.

The episode soon decends into dullness though. Kor and Worf squibbling is silly, and I thought that having Toral being the enemy was a bit random. I agree that it was a nice callback, as back in TNG he was just there as a plot point. It didn't help that I hadn't seen all of TNG when I first saw this episode though, so I didn't know who he was or what role he'd played before until well after.

In the end though, knowing who he is doesn't make the episode any more exciting!
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Old March 5 2012, 08:26 PM   #1117
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post

I'm a Terry Pratchett fan, because I figure if I'm going to be a nerd then I may as well go all the way into the depths of comic fantasy. My favourite of his novels is Men at Arms, a story about an assassin that acquires the Discworld's first and only gun but is unprepared for the magical power that such a weapon would hold over him. I think you can see where I'm going with this.
An interesting point of comparison. I'm a Discworld fan, and to my shame the Sword of Kahless and the Gonne never met in my mind. Perhaps you are yet nerdier than I. Much to learn, I still have.

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
....I do like that they bring back some continuity from TNG rather than inventing some new adversary for the heroes to fight.
Following on from my approval of the Karemma last episode, I also like the fact that the Letheans made a reappearance. However, they are somewhat cheapened here, since Kor just wakes up with a headache rather than a) dying or b) playing tennis with Garak on the promenade while aging rapidly. So while I'm pleased that an established race was once again brought in to help make the setting continuous and better-defined, it does seem to contradict how Lethean telepathy works. Unless interrogative telepathy is a different "move" from the full-on telepathic shock attack?
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Old March 5 2012, 09:49 PM   #1118
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
Following on from my approval of the Karemma last episode, I also like the fact that the Letheans made a reappearance. However, they are somewhat cheapened here, since Kor just wakes up with a headache rather than a) dying or b) playing tennis with Garak on the promenade while aging rapidly. So while I'm pleased that an established race was once again brought in to help make the setting continuous and better-defined, it does seem to contradict how Lethean telepathy works. Unless interrogative telepathy is a different "move" from the full-on telepathic shock attack?
I'm thinking it was more differing goals - the Lethean in Distant Voices wanted Bashir taken out of commission while he robbed the place and didn't care if he lived or died. Toral probably wanted the Lethean here to get the information Kor had so they could race on ahead, while keeping him intact enough to believe he'd passed out drunk and then go and get the Sword anyway, using Kor to disarm the booby traps surrounding such a prize. All the work done, the sword reclaimed, and he doesn't have to do more than kill a grumpy old man. Typical tactics for a member of the house of Duras.
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Old March 5 2012, 10:03 PM   #1119
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

^ Good points. That all makes a great deal of sense, so I accept the conclusion that Lethean telepathic attacks can be tailored to different ends through conscious intent of the Lethean in question, and that it was indeed (as it appeared to be), the same form of attack. I prefer that to the idea that they're pulling new rabbits out of the same hat (which would undermine some of my pleasure at having the same hat brought back in the first place).

It's still a bit uncomfortable for me though; I remembered Bashir telling us that Lethean attacks are usually fatal, and it was at least implied that he survived through unusual force of will. When I first saw the episode, I thought "Oh, Kor's dead!" when the Lethean struck, and was a little peeved when it seemed "Lethean attack" had been defanged.
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Old March 6 2012, 06:42 PM   #1120
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Our Man Bashir (***)

I've never seen a James Bond movie. There's no point getting into why that is, it's just not a series that ever interested me and I never bothered to try it. While elements of James Bond seep into my consciousness through popular culture, much like irradiated water from a nuclear plant seeps into the ground-water, I still don't quite understand the series and thus I'm left feeling that I can't entirely appreciate this episode. I get some of the more obvious jokes, such as Mona Luvsitt's name or the villain explaining his entire plan before executing the hero, but there are probably more subtle jokes and references in the episode that I don't get. So the parody works well enough in a general sense, but this episode wasn't written for me and the rest of us James Bond virgins.

The biggest problem with the episode is that it's yet another holodeck malfunction episode and yet this one manages to be even more complicated than most. Some Cardassian terrorist group that end up being completely unimportant decide to blow up a runabout that is conveniently carrying almost the entire command staff of DS9, an emergency transport goes wonky and their bodies end up in the holosuite. That's beyond ridiculous, it's like the show was trying to make up for its lack of a holodeck malfunction episodes so far by coming up with the most complicated one imaginable. It's a necessary evil to allow the main cast to have some fun playing alternate characters, but it's still there taking up screen-time with complicated technobabble throughout the episode. And for what, some false sense of drama? I suppose it gives Bashir and Garak an opportunity to squabble over what it means to be a real intelligence agent, but that's about it.

Actually, putting Garak into the simulation was a clever choice, he gets to scoff at how absurd the whole experience is throughout, and I like that his sense of professional pride is wounded by Bashir trying to act like a spy. What's worse, the program actually rewards Bashir for being flashy and taking needless risks, something that Garak knows would get a real spy killed. I also the ending where Bashir destroys the world in order to buy time, using Garak's earlier monologue to good comic effect.

ANASTASIA: Oh, Julian, I never thought I'd see you alive again. Not after you fell out of that dirigible over Iceland.
BASHIR: I had a parachute, and there was a submarine there waiting for me.
I think I did that once while playing Just Cause 2...

Runabouts Lost: 4

So long USS Orinoco Flow.
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Old March 6 2012, 08:12 PM   #1121
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Any episode with Bashir and Garak is an automatic WIN in my book. This episode was really great. Holodeck episodes always have the potential to go very, very wrong, but this one was awesome fun.

Interesting fact, this episode came out around the same time as a Bond movie. Apparently, the people who own Bond thought the tribute was too blatant, and they said a rather nasty letter to that effect. The result is the next time we see Julian Bashir secret agent the Bond references and much more muted.
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Old March 6 2012, 08:28 PM   #1122
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

"Our Man Bashir" is one of my favorite episodes. I know that in the grand scheme of things it's pointless fluff, but it's FUN fluff. I'm also a huge James Bond fan, so I loved all of the various riffs on the franchise.

And I don't think it's a coincidence that our good doctor's initials are JB...
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Old March 6 2012, 08:38 PM   #1123
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Our Man Bashir is one of my favourites, and it's a shame about the copyright business DS9 Gal mentioned, because it's probably what prevented the sequel which the episode's end pretty much promised from happening (aside from a single scene).
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Old March 6 2012, 08:40 PM   #1124
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Hmmm...Since the Title is Our Man Bashir, I'd lean more towards Our Man Flint, which I believe had some of the same plot points even, being tied up in the caves, definitely reminds of a scene from that movie, I believe (though it was alot of years ago I watched it back in the 1970s, so I could be wrong).

I thought the episode was fairly good, and I really enjoyed the parody and Garak's part in it
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Old March 6 2012, 08:48 PM   #1125
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I'm not a fan of The Sword of Kahless in particular. I think I watched it once and basically forgot all about it.

Our Man Bashir is fun. Good use of Garak. Avery Brooks is hilarious in this as the evil mastermind, as I recall.

As to the whole holodeck/transporter malfunction (or whatever it is), it almost seems like a parody itself, though I'm not sure it was intended quite that way. Maybe it was a bit, I guess.
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