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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old February 28 2012, 03:50 AM   #136
teacake
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

Well for that salary I fail to see why anyone had a problem showing up and mouthing technobabble.
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Old February 28 2012, 03:58 AM   #137
Guy Gardener
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

Geneviève Bujold ran screaming from the set after three days.

Through a wall loony tunes style does not seem inconceivable.

And she was probably paid considerably more than Jennifer, given that she was the series lead.

Have you ever seen the footage of Eric Stoltz as Marty McFly?

I never really added it up before but that makes Kate the most junior cast member. the voyager cast was together bonding learning to be one of those stage families, and then out of no where in walks this punk kid "Mulgrew' thinking that she's in charge pushing her weight around and taking the good parking spot.

With that being even a fraction of the truth, Kate could have been a lot nicer to jeri when she showed up.
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Old February 28 2012, 03:59 AM   #138
You_Will_Fail
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

She probably thought the money wasn't worth the ridiculously long hours and everyone on the set looking at her and thinking "wtf this woman is useless".
Although even Bujold couldn't have done any worse than Mulgrew in "Counterpoint" *shudders*
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Old February 28 2012, 04:25 AM   #139
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

You don't like Counterpoint?

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Old February 28 2012, 04:27 AM   #140
BrownShatner
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

Seems to me the mistake was believing Voyager was doing fine and only needed to replace one boring character with sexy Seven of Nine. In reality, half the cast had no personality and just stood around reading computer displays while the EMH character carried the show.

They should have taken the opportunity to do a more major overhaul of the show, getting rid of Kes, Kim, Chakotay, and perhaps Tuvok; and replaced them with characters with some interesting dramatic tension.
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Old February 28 2012, 04:31 AM   #141
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

Sometimes it was like David E Kelly was running through the set of Boston legal with a bloodied Hatchet.
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Old February 28 2012, 04:36 AM   #142
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

BrownShatner wrote: View Post

They should have taken the opportunity to do a more major overhaul of the show, getting rid of Kes, Kim, Chakotay, and perhaps Tuvok; and replaced them with characters with some interesting dramatic tension.
Exactly how would REPLACING the characters have made a difference without better writing? The characters didn't need replaced (except maybe Wang who realllly couldn't act), the writers just needed to get their sh*t together and find some direction for them and work on it and not just work on what the concept of the next episode would be.
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Old February 28 2012, 04:45 AM   #143
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

Over 70 writers for 170 scripts.

Too much farming, not enough drive from the producers.

JMS wrote almost 60 consecutive episodes of Babylon 5 all by himself.

Some think that that's a good, others not.
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Old February 28 2012, 04:50 AM   #144
BrownShatner
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

You_Will_Fail wrote: View Post
Exactly how would REPLACING the characters have made a difference without better writing? The characters didn't need replaced (except maybe Wang who realllly couldn't act), the writers just needed to get their sh*t together and find some direction for them and work on it and not just work on what the concept of the next episode would be.
Take Chakotay, for example. They essentially killed the drama inherent in his character in the first or second episode. After that, he became another version of Fat Riker. So, after the audience has watched him sit around doing paperwork for three seasons, are they suddenly going to believe he's once again a dashing rebel commander? It seemed like once the VOY writers made someone a boring putz, they were resolved to keep him a boring putz for the next 7 years.

Yeah, and the David Kelley reference is apropos. Most episodic dramas don't fear turning over their casts. Star Trek was lazy because they were immune to being cancelled.
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Old February 28 2012, 05:02 AM   #145
BrownShatner
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Over 70 writers for 170 scripts.

Too much farming, not enough drive from the producers.
That probably explains why the show was so inconsistent. It it was just bad, I would have never watched it. But every now and again you'd catch a great episode and foolishly get you hopes up for the next one.
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Old February 28 2012, 05:39 AM   #146
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

70 writers? That doesn't sound right, I think Guy is just exaggerating.
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Old February 28 2012, 06:02 AM   #147
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

No.

I counted them all.

And this is before I was told about cutting and pasting, I manually transcribed from 170 episode listings to make a master list of writers, and 70ish is as close to the actual number as i can remember 10 years later.

It took me hours.

Of course some scripts are attributed to as many as 6 (RETROSPECT!) writers (and Berman, he was rubber stamped on every script because he owned the scripts and fixed the punctuation.). IMDB only lists actors/writers if they made more than one episode in the main parent list, and even so, there are 30 names listed as contributing to at least 2 Voyager Scripts.

(edit)

according to wikipedia unless I ####ed up, which I probably did...

Andre Bormanis
Andrew Price
Anthony Williams
Arnold Rudnick
Bill Dial
Bill Prady
Bill Vallely:
Brannon Braga
Bryan Fuller
Chris Abbott
Clayvon C. Harris
Dave Long
David Kemper
David Zabel
Dianna Gitto
Eileen Connors
Evan Carlos Somers
Gannon Kenney:
Gary Holland
Geo Cameron
George A. Brozak:
George Elliot
Greg Elliot
Harry 'Doc' Kloor
J. Kelley Burke
Jack Klein
Jack Monaco
James Kahn
Jean Louise Matthias
Jeri Taylor
Jessica Scott
Jimmy Diggs
Joe Menosky
John Bruno
Juliann deLayne
Karen Klein
Kenneth Biller
Larry Brody
Larry Nemecek
Lisa Klink
Mark Gaberman
Michael Perricone
Michael Piller
Michael Taylor:
Mike Sussman:
Mike Wollaeger
Naren Shankar
Nicholas Corea
Nick Sagan
Paul Brown:
Phyllis Strong
Raf Green
Rich Hosek
Richard Gadas
Rick Brman
Rick Williams
Robert J. Doherty
Robert Lederman
Robert Picardo:
Robin Burger:
Ronald D. Moore
Ronald Wilkerson
Scott Miller
Shawn Piller
Sherry Klein
Skye Dent
Steve J. Kay
Tom Szollosi

68 human beings exactly had writing credits on Voyager.

Oh.

IMDB thinks that gene Roddenberry has a writing credit on 170 episodes of Voyager.

69.
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Last edited by Guy Gardener; February 28 2012 at 07:17 AM.
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Old February 28 2012, 06:36 AM   #148
DeepSpaceWine
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

Voyager was slipping in the ratings by its third season so word came down from UPN to mix things. Make the show more action based and 'sex it up' to appeal to a wider audience.
You can see signs of it in Season 3. Take "Favorite Son" or the beach resort Holodeck vacation spot they had then, not to mention Kes going au faux-natural (has any female ever used her real hair in Star Trek? Maybe just Hoshi?) and wearing catsuits (/rolls eyes at the debate that just subsided on this thread).

I never really added it up before but that makes Kate the most junior cast member. the voyager cast was together bonding learning to be one of those stage families, and then out of no where in walks this punk kid "Mulgrew' thinking that she's in charge pushing her weight around and taking the good parking spot.
It's not unusual for the actress. Kate showed up, loving a mystery, and insisted she was Mrs. Columbo. Well, you know how well that went over. After going a few rounds with Catwoman (named the Red Claw, no doubt after her hairdo), she decided to board a starship for what seemed like it would only be a three hour tour. Well...
The weather in the Badlands started getting rough, the tiny ship was tossed, if not for luck (certainly not a fearless crew), Voyager would be lost. The ship set down in the sector of this uncharted Delta Quadrant...

Chakotay's probably happy to be as far away from comet-induced zombie-ism as he can be.

Over 70 writers for 170 scripts.

Too much farming, not enough drive from the producers.

JMS wrote almost 60 consecutive episodes of Babylon 5 all by himself.

Some think that that's a good, others not.
JMS's ability to churn out quality scripts like that is a lost art. Rod Serling had it, Stirling Silliphant had it, many shows back in that era of television had a lead writer, lead meaning they wrote more than half the episodes of each season, a season being 32-39 episodes each. The nature of television has changed and outside of rare niches like Babylon 5 was in (was lucky he got into Warner Bros. at the right time, as it was launching the PTEN venture which was aiming at a sci-fi audience. It certainly wouldn't have been on WB), that kind of singularity of writing just isn't seen on television.
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Old February 28 2012, 06:54 AM   #149
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

exodus wrote: View Post
Two stories in two books and 2 stories a year out of 28 stories a season doesn't equate into 7 years worth of material . Even while Kes wa on the show by 3rd season they weren't writing much more than her saying "yes, doctor." I think it shows Jeri Taylor wasn't lying. What reason would she have to lie for if she's admitting it was their own lack of success.

Besides, everyone wants to blame Rick Berman or Jeri Taylor.
Did anyone bother to ask what Jen Lien wanted? Did anybody consider she didn't want to stay doing Trek. That she didn't like the job. She has said since the start that the choice to leave was mutual.
As Guy has correctly pointed out, actors have agents.

Ratings was a small part of what modern Trek is all about. Voyager held enough in the ratings to last but Seven of Nine gave Paramount something else they wanted too, a strong boost in merchandising. Seven's image made them LOTS of money!
If you watch the episodes in seasons 1-3 again and read the Voyager books from the same era, you will see that Kes had more than two stories each year. There were many episodes where she wasn't the main character but still played a very important role. Compare that to Harry Kim who really was the one with two episodes each year when he was more than just a visible character in the background.

In season 3, the season you accuse the character for doing nothing more than saying "yes Doctor", Kes was the main character in "Warlord" and "Before And After". She did also play a very important role in "Basics #2", "Sacred Ground", The Swarm", "Darkling" and "Scorpion". She was often visible and highly involved in many other episodes. That's a lot more than saying "yes Doctor".

I don't think you know more than most of the rest of us what Jennifer Lien wanted. What I know, and I have that from many sources was that she enjoyed being a part of the Voyager cast and that she got very sad and depressed when she was kicked out.

If your theory about Jennifer Lien leaving to do voice job instead of acting had been true, then those in charge of Voyager would have trumpeted it out in every possible statement and everyone of the many Star Trek magazine over and over again that Lien was leaving because she wanted to do voice job instead. Not to mention that Lien herself would have been showed up making the same statment.

None of that happened. Instead we got half-done weak explanations about the writers being so lousy that they couldn't come up with stories for one character (which is a lie) and the usual crap about "mutual agreement", a word which makes me cringe. My exprience from the world of music tells me that everytime the words "mutual agreement" shows up, then it's foul play involved.

And no, Taylor wasn't telling the truth. Her own writing confirms that.

As for the merchandising, I'm not surprised considering the fact how Seven Of Nine was marketed by those in charge of Voyager. I mean, you could hardly open a Star Trek magazine without one poster, one lengthy interview and several pictures of Seven and you could hardly access the official Star Trek website without finding a picture and an inteview there too. Sometimes when reading those magazines and interviews I got the impression that season 1,2 and 3 was just something out of my own imagination and that Voyager actually started when Seven arrived. If Kes had got the same marketing as Seven did, then Kes would have been the great star of the show.
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Old February 28 2012, 07:07 AM   #150
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

Except for the fact that Kes wasn't a very marketable character (not that she was intended to be).

You have to admit that 7of9 checked all the Trek boxes, even beyond her cup-size. Super-intelligent, logical, biologically unemotional, naive in ways, stark contrast with the Captain character yet subordinate. She was the kind of character that should have been on the first season.
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