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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old February 26 2012, 06:48 PM   #1051
Admiral Shran
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
In the end, this episode probably did too much too quickly. So much happens in this episode that it probably would have been served better by an arc similar to the one that started season 6. The Cardassian government falls, the Klingons declare war on the Cardassians, the Federation's alliance with the Klingons breaks down, and Worf is introduced, all in a two-parter. It works, but it shakes up the status quo so violently that the rest of the season is almost a let-down for sticking to the new status quo. It's a ginormous event episode in a season that otherwise lacks them. Spreading the wealth over a couple of episodes might have been a better way of going about things.
I don't think a six-part arc would have worked for it. For one, TPTB obviously weren't ready for something of that magnitude. Second, six parts might have been pushing it. I think a three part episode, which the show had already done, would have been more suitable.

Still, The Way of the Warrior is easily one of show's best episodes.
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Old February 26 2012, 07:13 PM   #1052
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
And after watching this video last week, it's nice that Worf is now on a show where his talents are respected.

Wow, that is hilarious

As for The Way of the Warrior, I can't really find much fault with it. A lot does happen quickly, but nothing un-happens, it's exciting, some of the character moments are amazing (other than the root beer conversation, I think my favorite is the bit between Odo and Quark about Rom stealing the disruptor), and the consequences are far-reaching.

I think that the knowledge of Worf's arrival as a ratings stunt tends to make it easy to underestimate how cohesive these events actually are, and how well they fit into the story overall. Rather than rushing toward a confrontation with the Dominion, we see the effects of the changelings working in the background, preparing the alpha quadrant for conquest.

Great stuff.

Last edited by flemm; February 26 2012 at 07:26 PM.
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Old February 26 2012, 07:29 PM   #1053
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

^ The disruptor-in-a-box scene is certainly a great one. It's a truly hilarious delivery from Auberjonois: "you're going to hit them with a box?" My sister, when she watched it with me, let out an involuntary giggle at that point. Oh, and "With what?" is near-perfect too. Odo's smugness is fantastic.

Obviously, the Root Beer scene has already been discussed, and its quality noted.

I also really like the Kira/Jadzia scene in the holodeck; I think the two characters work well together when the scene sets up a contrast between the two, their perceptions and their backgrounds. Jadzia's the "privileged" woman who grew up on a prosperous planet (and is also in the minority elite of her culture, due to being Joined) and whose trials and personal demons stem from introspective self-doubt and failures to live up to her full potential. Well, at first anyway (to acknowledge our ongoing Curzon Ascendant debate). On the other hand, Kira is a person from a war-torn world who struggled through hell to get where she is and whose demons are grounded in circumstance, external reality, and the trauma of action and experience. It's an interesting contrast that comes off well in this scene. I wish there were more like it.
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Old February 26 2012, 07:37 PM   #1054
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
It's a truly hilarious delivery from Auberjonois: "you're going to hit them with a box?"
Yeah, the delivery is so good that it remains funny even when you know the lines by heart.

As to the Kira/Jadzia scene, I agree that it adds a different layer to their friendship than we really see elsewhere.

One downside to seasons three and four, imo, is that the writers are understandably expending a lot of effort on making the Starfleet characters (especially Sisko and Bashir) interesting, as that had previously been a problem, to the point that Kira, who is easily the show's most interesting character in the first two seasons, loses a bit of her edge and fades into the background. Doesn't really matter in the long run because she becomes a focal point again starting in season 5.

What you do see happen in the middle seasons, which is not very... scintillating in the short term, but which is productive in the long run, is the writers' exploring, like in these scenes with Jadzia, the idea that this traumatized person now has a comfortable life. So, in a sense, while it's a galactic crisis for everyone else, it's actually the most relaxing existence that Kira has ever had.

So, that's interesting.
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Old February 26 2012, 09:00 PM   #1055
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
In the end, this episode probably did too much too quickly. So much happens in this episode that it probably would have been served better by an arc similar to the one that started season 6. The Cardassian government falls, the Klingons declare war on the Cardassians, the Federation's alliance with the Klingons breaks down, and Worf is introduced, all in a two-parter. It works, but it shakes up the status quo so violently that the rest of the season is almost a let-down for sticking to the new status quo. It's a ginormous event episode in a season that otherwise lacks them. Spreading the wealth over a couple of episodes might have been a better way of going about things.
I personally season 4 was more coherent than season 3, and nearly every episode of season 4 was a pleasure to watch (which I've never found in one season of TNG or VOY). The writers explored with more subtle points and added flesh to all the secondary characters, while keeping the intrigue up. I never felt that season 4 drifted because so many of the episodes were so damn good. Perhaps at the end of this season you might mathematically bump into this fact and validate it TheGodBen.
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Old February 26 2012, 09:44 PM   #1056
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
I don't think a six-part arc would have worked for it. For one, TPTB obviously weren't ready for something of that magnitude. Second, six parts might have been pushing it. I think a three part episode, which the show had already done, would have been more suitable.
Can I haggle you up to a four-parter and we'll call it a deal?

flemm wrote: View Post
Wow, that is hilarious
What struck me about that video was that in a few clips Worf's suggestions were the right course of action but Picard summarily dismissed them for being too hostile. Some of those episodes would have been much shorter had Worf been captain.

Worf was one of the better characters on TNG, but in episodes that didn't revolve around him there was an tendency to use him as an example of regressive thinking so that Picard and the others could look more enlightened. I don't remember that problem cropping up much on DS9, but I am wearing rose-tinted glasses.

Ln X wrote: View Post
I never felt that season 4 drifted because so many of the episodes were so damn good. Perhaps at the end of this season you might mathematically bump into this fact and validate it TheGodBen.
From what I remember season 4 was the first truly consistent season of DS9, so I imagine it will get a good score. But at the same time, nothing much happened. WOTW shook things up in a big way but the rest of the season played it safe, even Homefront/Paradise Lost reverted back to the status quo by the end of the story. Small elements of the story changed, such as Dukat's private little war against the Klingons and Eddington joining the Maquis, but the political landscape remained largely unchanged. Seasons 5, 6, 7, and arguably 2 & 3 did a better job at advancing the meta-story.
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Old February 26 2012, 09:53 PM   #1057
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Can I haggle you up to a four-parter and we'll call it a deal?
Okay, I suppose four will be acceptable.



And my favorite part from the Worf video is from The Masterpiece Society....

WORF: Why shouldn't we grant them asylum?
TROI: We can't do that.

Even we he suggests the reasonable course of action (which they end up taking anyway) there's still somebody ready to shoot him down.
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Old February 27 2012, 01:33 AM   #1058
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Just finished watching The Way of the Warrior and I noticed a few things:

1. Not only was everything spruced up, but even the colours and image quality was. You watch The Adversary and there is almost a little blur to everything whereas with The Way of the Warrior everything was razor sharp. It looked like a movie for Godsake!

2. Klingons happen to be the best race ever! Full of passion, violence and madness!

3. Worf so fitted in to everything!

4. This felt more like an ensemble cast here and not just two or three characters getting the lime light. There was a curious balance of screen time for both the main and secondary characters.

5. Space battles; are finally done justice and you get to really see just what the consequences of all the intrigue of the first half of this episode amount to.

One amazing episode and you could argue it is five stars because it sets a standard for all future Star Trek episodes and movies. Truly awe inspiring and after three seasons a real gem like this (not forgetting The Die is Cast; the original precursor for all the awesome episodes to come) was worth the wait.
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Old February 27 2012, 01:54 AM   #1059
flemm
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
WORF: Why shouldn't we grant them asylum?
TROI: We can't do that.
Well, there's also that one where he's like... "Why are we sending over our Chief Engineer?" And Picard's like... No, no we must. LoL. (It's been a while, but I think that's Samaritan Snare, where Geordi ends up spending the whole episode as a prisoner.)

Part of what makes it funny is seeing Michael Dorn's "acting" in the same situation over and over.

Also the time loop episode where Worf's idea gets dismissed each time through the loop
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Old February 27 2012, 05:49 AM   #1060
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

^Just a point of order - That was Riker, not Picard. Picard was getting his heart tended to at the time.

One thing that sticks out for me during "Way of the Warrior" is that the pyrotechnics seem to have been revamped and improved. The exploding Klingon ships, especially noticable during the battle with Defiant, seem a lot more realistic than the typical explosions seen prior in the series, and those seen in TNG.
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Old February 27 2012, 12:07 PM   #1061
Admiral Shran
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Something I love about The Way of Warrior is that Sisko is completely willing to tell Starfleet Command to go to hell.

Here's another example of the Prime Directive being used to avoid any responsibility. Federation security is at stake, but TPTB want to let the Klingons attack because it's "purely an internal matter." You can't sit by and do nothing when an atrocity is about to be committed. You don't let a race get exterminated, even if that race is the Cardassians. Sisko continues doing the right thing to keep the Alpha Quadrant strong enough to resist the Dominion.
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Old February 27 2012, 04:54 PM   #1062
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

The Federation didn't do nothing; they condemned the Klingon attack. Given what we'd seen of Starfleet to that point, it's not unrealistic to believe that they were in no way ready for a spontaneous war with the Klingons, which surely is what would have ensued had they taken a more aggressive stance.

If the actions of the DS9 crew had led to a full-scale war with the Klingons, which the Federation had perhaps lost, would you still maintain they had done the right thing?

For the record, I'm not saying that what they did is wrong. Realistically I don't think we're in any position to make a valid assessment...everything we know about the situation is filtered through DS9's perspective.
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Old February 27 2012, 05:14 PM   #1063
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

DonIago wrote: View Post
One thing that sticks out for me during "Way of the Warrior" is that the pyrotechnics seem to have been revamped and improved. The exploding Klingon ships, especially noticable during the battle with Defiant, seem a lot more realistic than the typical explosions seen prior in the series, and those seen in TNG.
Well, it was right around this time that they were transitioning from model to CGI. Therefore, many of the models they had would become obsolete. I read somewhere that a lot of the explosions were actually models being blown up.
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Old February 27 2012, 05:16 PM   #1064
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

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The Federation didn't do nothing; they condemned the Klingon attack.
The Federation Council only decided to condemn the invasion once it had happened and was public knowledge. Before, when they knew that the invasion was coming, they ordered Sisko and the others not to warn the Cardassians.

Even if what the DS9 crew did in warning the Cardassians through Garak had lead to a full-scale war with the Klingons, how does that negate the fact that it was the right thing to do? You don't sit back and let a massacre happen if you can stop it somehow if you're a moral person. And saying that the Federation Council only ordered them to be quite while they pursued communications with Gowron and the High Council doesn't matter either - they were still willing to let the invasion happen.
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Old February 27 2012, 06:21 PM   #1065
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

To borrow a line from B5, "We were faced with the deaths of millions...or the deaths of billions."

The whole point of many of DS9's episodes was that there wasn't a "right" approach and a "wrong" approach...just different perspectives.
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