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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old February 25 2012, 12:58 PM   #1036
Admiral Shran
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

flemm wrote: View Post
As I recall, the identity of the Founders was going to be revealed later, but Piller (I think) pushed the writers to go with it right away.
I've never head that. When were they planning on revealing it?
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Old February 25 2012, 03:47 PM   #1037
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

flemm wrote: View Post
As I recall, the identity of the Founders was going to be revealed later, but Piller (I think) pushed the writers to go with it right away.
I'm torn on that idea. On the one hand, it was weird to go from knowing almost nothing about the Dominion to knowing their biggest secret over the course of only three episodes, stretching out the mystery of the Founders across season 3 would have made more sense. In Babylon 5 the Shadow War was in full swing by the time we learned who the Shadows really were and what they were up to.

On the other hand, the Changelings are the best thing about the Dominion. The Jem'Hadar and the Vorta are rather generic as alien concepts and their most interesting attributes are their devotion to the Founders and "the order of things". The Changelings not only have an interesting backstory and truly alien society, their abilities also make them a very clear and present threat. But perhaps not having the Changelings to fall back on for a season would have allowed the writers to develop other races of the Dominion and given a sense of them as an anti-Federation as originally envisioned.
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Old February 25 2012, 04:44 PM   #1038
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I think it was better that the identity of the Founders was revealed in The Search, because it strengthened Odo's character, and Odo was of course integral to Improbable Cause and The Die is Cast. I think keeping the Founders all mysterious and unknown might have detracted from the Dominion threat, because The Search really showed just how cold, alien and ruthless the changelings were. This made the Dominion threat more palpable especially with changeling infiltration as shown in The Adversary.

Whatever the mathematics TheGodBen used to show that season 2 was slightly than season 3 of DS9, I personally feel season 3 was slightly better than season 2 simply because it was more coherent and had more story arcs. Plus season 3 had The Die is Cast which in my opinion is in the same level of awesomeness as Duet except one is all-out action and intrigue, and the other is a gripping character play. The Die is Cast really lifted season 3 as a whole.

That is mah 50 cents...
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Old February 25 2012, 06:07 PM   #1039
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

In B5 the Shadows themselves may have remained a mysterious force, but they had an obvious spokesman. The Vorlons of course had Kosh and Ulkesh.

I suppose it could be similarly said that the Dominion had Weyoun, but would Weyoun be effective if we didn't know whom he was working for on some level, especially that half his entertainment value came from his deference to Odo? The Vorlons and Shadows both had pre-existing involvements with our characters aside from the spokespeople as well.
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Old February 25 2012, 06:26 PM   #1040
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
I've never head that. When were they planning on revealing it?
I don't know that it ever got that far. I think it was more that the writers had the idea, but were thinking in terms of keeping the secret for a while (in between seasons two and three), but then Piller basically said, "That's too good, you have to lead with it."

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
I'm torn on that idea.
Yeah, there are some good things about revealing it. Which is why I think the bigger problem is the way the virtual reality "twist" ends up dominating part II.

I think a good comparison is Call to Arms and the Occupation Arc. Imagine that six-episode story becomes a two episode story, and, in the 2nd part, we find out that a lot of what we've been seeing is just a dream or whatever.

I think The Search could/should have been a more ambitious mini-arc (similar to the Occupation Arc in scale), but the show just wasn't ready to do that yet.

The virtual reality plot that evaporates in Part II is the type of big, galaxy-shaking stuff that ends up actually happening later in the show, starting in Improbable Cause/The Die is Cast. So, I think the writers understood the letdown aspect and, obviously, moved beyond it.

I still find The Search to be really frustrating to watch. That said, following the show's evolution in fits and starts is one of the things I enjoy most about DS9, and this is part of that.
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Old February 25 2012, 09:22 PM   #1041
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

In B5 the Shadows themselves may have remained a mysterious force, but they had an obvious spokesman.
Morden!

Can you imagine Morden and Weyoun meeting?
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Old February 25 2012, 10:35 PM   #1042
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

DS9 Gal AZ wrote: View Post
In B5 the Shadows themselves may have remained a mysterious force, but they had an obvious spokesman.
Morden!

Can you imagine Morden and Weyoun meeting?
"What do you want?"

"To serve the Founders...in all things".

Then they stare at each other for five minutes with smarmy, slightly creepy smiles on their faces.

Then they part on "friendly" terms, each knowing the other has decided that they and everything they stand for must be destroyed.
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Old February 25 2012, 11:43 PM   #1043
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

That reminds me of Kai Winn and Weyoun meeting.

"We have so much in common."

{Winn checks Weyoun's pagh and recoils in horror} "No, we don't"

Now imagine Gul Dukat and Lord Refa bumping into each other...
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Old February 25 2012, 11:57 PM   #1044
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I always thought Vir and Rom would get along.
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Old February 26 2012, 12:05 AM   #1045
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Thor Damar wrote: View Post
Now imagine Gul Dukat and Lord Refa bumping into each other...
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Old February 26 2012, 12:17 AM   #1046
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
DS9 Gal AZ wrote: View Post
In B5 the Shadows themselves may have remained a mysterious force, but they had an obvious spokesman.
Morden!

Can you imagine Morden and Weyoun meeting?
"What do you want?"

"To serve the Founders...in all things".

Then they stare at each other for five minutes with smarmy, slightly creepy smiles on their faces.

Then they part on "friendly" terms, each knowing the other has decided that they and everything they stand for must be destroyed.
Perfect!

I'm pretty the Shadows would see the Founders as Vorlons made of goo ...

Gul Dukat and Lord Refa? Hmm. I actually think Dukat's more closely analogous to Cartagia, especially at the end.
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Old February 26 2012, 12:36 AM   #1047
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Dukat's scarier than Cartagia, though. Cartagia was dangerous because he had incredible political power and the freedom to do whatever he wanted. If he hadn't, he'd just be a raving loony who would likely get himself killed before too long. Emperor Cartagia is a terror, but Citizen Cartagia would just be pitiful. Dukat, though, is truly dangerous regardless of his situation. "Citizen Dukat" is every bit as dangerous as Gul Dukat....
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Old February 26 2012, 01:24 AM   #1048
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

mattyhugh wrote: View Post
I always thought Vir and Rom would get along.
Then suddenly, I just realized, Vir and Rom have incredibly similar character arcs throughout their respective shows!
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Old February 26 2012, 01:38 AM   #1049
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Morden was easily one of my faves on B5, especially after reading the novels.

Still wonder how he got into C&C in the pilot though.
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Old February 26 2012, 06:06 PM   #1050
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

The Way of the Warrior (****)

This was the episode that made me a Niner all those years ago. An obvious, some might say boring, choice but this was the episode that made me realise DS9 was so much more than TNG and Voyager. There was action on a scale I had never before seen on television, and that speaks quite loudly to a 10 year old boy. But it wasn't just action without meaning, this wasn't some alien-of-the-week stirring up trouble, this was the Klingons wreaking havoc, this was an episode that was clearly going to have consequences in the future. And it did. I may not have fully understood the political situation involving the Cardassians and the Dominion because I had somehow missed The Die is Cast, but I knew that what was happening was a Big Fucking Deal™ and I wanted to join the ride and find out where the greater story was going next.

Looking back on it now it's not quite the amazing experience it was when I was younger, it's much easier to see its flaws, but it's still a very solid arc episode with tonnes of action, politics, and character moments. Watching it again, what stood out for me wasn't all the big events (although I did enjoy those) but the lighter moments between the characters. O'Brien and Bashir sit in Quark's flinging sand peas into their mouths, Odo and Garak have breakfast together (a nice follow-up to The Die is Cast), and Jadzia and Kira have some fun in the holosuite. The best of them all is of course the legendary root-beer scene. Two great characters, both of them stuck in a political situation that they're helpless to do anything about, both forced to seek protection from an organisation they're slowly growing to respect.

Meanwhile, Worf joins the cast. Worf was hardly a necessary addition to the show, DS9 would have gotten along fine without him, but they decided they needed a ratings stunt and Worf was the stunt they decided to pull. Full credit to the show because the character slots in well enough here. Of all the characters on TNG, Worf is clearly the one most suited to DS9. He has the whole divided loyalties gimmick, he has daddy issues, he even had some respectable character development on a show not well known for it. And after watching this video last week, it's nice that Worf is now on a show where his talents are respected.

Having the Changelings infiltrate the Klingon government in order to make them attack the Cardassians for ostensibly being infiltrated by the Changelings and thus triggering a conflict between the Federation and the Klingons is brilliant. Confusing to write, but brilliant. It ties in perfectly with The Die is Cast where the Lovok Changeling suggests they already had plans to weaken the Federation and Klingons, and with The Adversary where it's apparent that the Changelings are attempting to trick the AQ powers into warring with one another. The Klingon conflict does seem to detract from the Dominion threat by way of reduced screen-time (not that the Dominion were all that present in season 3), but under the surface it's all part of the same grand arc.

In the end, this episode probably did too much too quickly. So much happens in this episode that it probably would have been served better by an arc similar to the one that started season 6. The Cardassian government falls, the Klingons declare war on the Cardassians, the Federation's alliance with the Klingons breaks down, and Worf is introduced, all in a two-parter. It works, but it shakes up the status quo so violently that the rest of the season is almost a let-down for sticking to the new status quo. It's a ginormous event episode in a season that otherwise lacks them. Spreading the wealth over a couple of episodes might have been a better way of going about things.

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