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Old February 23 2012, 05:08 AM   #391
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Re: "Castle" season 4 begins tonight

Following up on this from before...

Christopher wrote: View Post
Also, there are some word usages that sound to me like the ghostwriter is British, like "lav" for bathroom, "liner" for garbage bag, etc. Castle wouldn't use those.
Actually, having just finished Heat Rising, I'm now certain the actual writers are series creator/showrunner Andrew W. Marlowe and Tom Straw, a mystery writer who was mentioned on the cover of the first book and has often been suspected of being the writer. In the acknowledgments (which are supposedly written by Castle but are an opportunity for the real writers to express their thanks), there's a paragraph thanking both Andrew W. Marlowe and "Tom," in such glowing terms that I think it must be the respective writers thanking each other. Also, there's a mention in the acknowledgments of Marlowe's wife (a fellow writer on the show) as someone who's "always beside me." Moreover, just from reading the book, I realized that the Jameson Rook character (the surrogate for Castle) talked exactly like Castle, complete with an almost audible Nathan Fillion influence. It would be difficult for anyone other than the showrunner, the person who does the final polish on all the scripts and shapes the characters' voices (and works routinely with the actors), to capture that voice so exactly. So I was convinced it was Marlowe even before I read the acknowledgments.

But since Marlowe and Straw are both Americans, I can't explain the British word choices. It's odd.

Anyway, in light of what I was saying before about feeling that the show is becoming too broad and fanciful, I find it ironic and a bit incongruous that the Nikki Heat books, which are supposed to be works of potboiler fiction written by Castle, have more verisimilitude and naturalism to them than the show that's supposed to be Castle's real life (in terms of things like police procedure/organization, the portrayal of New York City, and the like). You'd think it'd be the other way around.
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Old February 23 2012, 05:20 AM   #392
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Re: "Castle" season 4 begins tonight

Christopher wrote: View Post
But since Marlowe and Straw are both Americans, I can't explain the British word choices. It's odd.
Maybe one or both of them spent some time in Britain. Or maybe they just like British slang.
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Old February 23 2012, 05:39 AM   #393
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Re: "Castle" season 4 begins tonight

But a writer portraying characters who are native New Yorkers would not put British slang in their mouths just because he "liked" it, because that would be inauthentic. It's the sort of thing I'd expect from a British writer who doesn't realize that Americans don't use those idioms.

I don't know, maybe some New Yorkers do use those idioms? It's a pretty cosmopolitan town, after all.
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Old February 23 2012, 05:41 AM   #394
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Re: "Castle" season 4 begins tonight

To me Rick using British words and what not in his works would make total sense given his cheeky sense of humour in "real life". Also remember that Rick created the Niki Heat novels IIRC are supposed to be totally different in tone and vibe to his previous Derek Storm series. So I wouldn't be surprised if there were things tossed in there like bizarre British words, Rick could be having fun (imagine that!!!) while writing this. The Derek Storm graphic novel in contrast to the Niki Heat novels was written by Brian Michael Bendis (who is supposed to be a huge Castle fan IIRC) and drawn by Kelly Sue DeConnick (who I believe drew the recent Osborn mini-series). Remember as well Christopher that these and the series aren't meant to be taken series. Your logical deductive approach to "Castle" I think is distorting your enjoyment of the show. I'm not attacking you or anything....just continuing to reply to the points you've made.
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Old February 23 2012, 07:01 AM   #395
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Re: "Castle" season 4 begins tonight

Christopher wrote: View Post
But a writer portraying characters who are native New Yorkers would not put British slang in their mouths just because he "liked" it, because that would be inauthentic.
Unless he just doesn't care about being authentic.
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Old February 23 2012, 07:05 AM   #396
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Re: "Castle" season 4 begins tonight

^ Good point.
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Old February 23 2012, 04:15 PM   #397
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Re: "Castle" season 4 begins tonight

Sci wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
But a writer portraying characters who are native New Yorkers would not put British slang in their mouths just because he "liked" it, because that would be inauthentic.
Unless he just doesn't care about being authentic.
Try a little deductive reasoning, in the spirit of detective stories. Remember what I just said about the writer capturing Castle's/Fillion's voice exactly? Someone with that good an ear for distinctive character voices wouldn't simply "not care" about authentic speech patterns. There's also the fact that the characters on the show don't use British idioms like that, which at least rules out Marlowe. As for Straw, he seems to have gone from LA to NYC without any intervening time living in the UK. (Although with a name like that, it's possible his family is from Britain, though I can't find any evidence of that.) So it remains an anomaly.

I wonder how long it'll be before the ghostwriters finally "come out" officially. Probably they'll keep up the conceit of Castle's authorship as long as the show remains on the air, and maybe for a while thereafter, what with DVD sales and all. I wonder if there's even a nondisclosure clause in their contracts.
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Old February 23 2012, 04:54 PM   #398
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Re: "Castle" season 4 begins tonight

I gotta say the writing of the show has taken a real dive.
Was a big fan the last two seasons, this year not even watching.
Very disappointed....
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Old February 23 2012, 05:46 PM   #399
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Re: "Castle" season 4 begins tonight

Christopher wrote: View Post
Actually, having just finished Heat Rising, I'm now certain the actual writers are series creator/showrunner Andrew W. Marlowe and Tom Straw, a mystery writer who was mentioned on the cover of the first book and has often been suspected of being the writer. In the acknowledgments (which are supposedly written by Castle but are an opportunity for the real writers to express their thanks), there's a paragraph thanking both Andrew W. Marlowe and "Tom," in such glowing terms that I think it must be the respective writers thanking each other. Also, there's a mention in the acknowledgments of Marlowe's wife (a fellow writer on the show) as someone who's "always beside me." Moreover, just from reading the book, I realized that the Jameson Rook character (the surrogate for Castle) talked exactly like Castle, complete with an almost audible Nathan Fillion influence. It would be difficult for anyone other than the showrunner, the person who does the final polish on all the scripts and shapes the characters' voices (and works routinely with the actors), to capture that voice so exactly. So I was convinced it was Marlowe even before I read the acknowledgments.
Nathan Fillion was on the Kevin Pollock's Chat Show podcast last year and he mentioned that the actual writer of the book was in one scene, talking to Castle, in a bookstore prior to one of Castle's autograph sessions. If I remember correctly, the scene shifted to Castle wrapping up the conversation, and he said to the guy something like "sounds good, thanks" and the guy walked away.
Kevin asked him who the writer was, and Fillion declined to say since it was Castle who wrote the book.
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Old February 23 2012, 05:52 PM   #400
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Re: "Castle" season 4 begins tonight

Christopher you suggest to Sci to use a little deductive reasoning...but so far you've continued to ignore all the points that I've made in order to continue to support your own approach to your own points. From what I know about you and your dedication to science and logical approach, that doesn't seem to be very fair either. I think I've made very legit counter points that take into account the series very nature...what you call its "cartoonish" tone or whatever. It seems to me you are doing everything to reject this notion instead of embracing or accepting it. I get you don't like this aspect of the series, but it is there. "Castle" is very satirical. You can't ignore that when doing an approach of analysis like the one you're doing. You are going about it with seriousness in mind when "Castle" and particularly the main character is anything but that. He's serious about his work and career yes, but he also likes to have fun and joke around. Why wouldn't he apply this aspect to his own work? Maybe we're both just too passionate about the opposite side of our opinions to come to common ground about this particular subject? LOL.
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Old February 23 2012, 07:09 PM   #401
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Re: "Castle" season 4 begins tonight

Admiral_Young wrote: View Post
I think I've made very legit counter points that take into account the series very nature...what you call its "cartoonish" tone or whatever. It seems to me you are doing everything to reject this notion instead of embracing or accepting it.
Why in the world would you think we're somehow required to come to an agreement on this? We're not arguing a question of fact, we're discussing our different subjective reactions to a work of fiction. You're entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine. Different people will inevitably have different tastes and preferences, and mature people respect that fact. I don't like Chinese food, but I'd never try to pick an argument with someone who does like it, because that would be silly; it's not a question of objective truth but of individual reactions. I don't engage in this argument you want to have because there's no reason to argue about it, no "right" answer to be found. De gustibus non est disputandem.


I get you don't like this aspect of the series, but it is there. "Castle" is very satirical. You can't ignore that when doing an approach of analysis like the one you're doing. You are going about it with seriousness in mind when "Castle" and particularly the main character is anything but that. He's serious about his work and career yes, but he also likes to have fun and joke around. Why wouldn't he apply this aspect to his own work?
You're completely misunderstanding my position. I have no problem with Castle's sense of humor. I have a problem with the writers portraying the world unrealistically -- like having the "superhero" killer earlier this season effortlessly bisect someone from head to toe with a single sword blow, something that is physically impossible and that was depicted in a ludicrously cartoony way. It's that carelessness about the plausibility of the world that's what I'm referring to when I call it cartoony. Enjoyment of fiction depends on the willing suspension of disbelief, and these days the writers often fail to earn that willingness from me, largely because the show just doesn't live up to the bar set by the first two seasons.


Maybe we're both just too passionate about the opposite side of our opinions to come to common ground about this particular subject? LOL.
I'm not passionate about it either way; I'm just disappointed that the writing in the past two seasons hasn't been as smart and convincing as it was in the first two seasons. And again, there's no reason why we should have to come to common ground, since it's entirely a question of personal, subjective preference.
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Old February 23 2012, 08:08 PM   #402
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Re: "Castle" season 4 begins tonight

I'm not trying to argue with you about it believe it or not...all I've been trying to do is discuss alternatives and generate discussion. I just don't see the vast difference in the quality of writing you do I guess. Maybe it is because I've been focusing mainly on the shipper aspect of the series, rather than taking an overall critical view point. Nothing though has jumped out to me that says oh boy we're starting to get silly. Maybe that will change. *Shrugs*.
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Old February 23 2012, 09:29 PM   #403
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Re: "Castle" season 4 begins tonight

Admiral_Young wrote: View Post
Nothing though has jumped out to me that says oh boy we're starting to get silly.
Well, Castle did reach into the nuclear bomb at the last second and pulled out a bunch of wires, which ultimately saved the city. That was a little silly.
The entire show is pretty unbelievable, but that doesn't make it any less fun to watch.
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Old February 23 2012, 09:43 PM   #404
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Re: "Castle" season 4 begins tonight

It's so disappointing that a show about an unpaid, unarmed writer being a police detective's partner and solving over 20 homicides a year doesn't strive for 100% accuracy and authenticity.
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Old February 23 2012, 10:08 PM   #405
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Re: "Castle" season 4 begins tonight

Christopher wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
But a writer portraying characters who are native New Yorkers would not put British slang in their mouths just because he "liked" it, because that would be inauthentic.
Unless he just doesn't care about being authentic.
Try a little deductive reasoning, in the spirit of detective stories. Remember what I just said about the writer capturing Castle's/Fillion's voice exactly? Someone with that good an ear for distinctive character voices wouldn't simply "not care" about authentic speech patterns.
I could easily see someone caring about capturing Fillion's speech patterns but not caring about using accurate New York City slang.
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