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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old February 15 2012, 09:32 PM   #76
Therin of Andor
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Re: The highlights of Nemesis

Dukhat wrote: View Post
I thought Shinzon went after Earth because he finally bowed to the pressure of his Romulan allies-of-convenience, who wanted him to do this the whole time.
He did it to show the Romulan people just how easy it was to do something that the Romulan Senate had tried and failed to do since the Romulan/Earth War of the 22nd century. The fact that it was the home planet of the man who shared his DNA was cream.
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Old February 15 2012, 11:11 PM   #77
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Re: The highlights of Nemesis

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
He did it to show the Romulan people just how easy it was to do something that the Romulan Senate had tried and failed to do since the Romulan/Earth War of the 22nd century.
I don't remember him saying or implying anything to that effect. I could be remembering things differently however...I'll have to rewatch that particular scene again.
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Old February 16 2012, 12:13 AM   #78
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Re: The highlights of Nemesis

Yeah we're not given any indication at all for why Shinzon has it in so badly for Earth. About the most we can surmise is that it comes from jealousy over Picard's perfect life, and a desire to make Earth pay for not rescuing him or something.

But the movie never really suggests or explores any of that.
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Old February 17 2012, 07:32 AM   #79
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Re: The highlights of Nemesis

Dukhat wrote: View Post
I don't remember him saying or implying anything to that effect. I could be remembering things differently however...I'll have to rewatch that particular scene again.
Perhaps I'm remembering a John Logan interview, or the novelization.
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Old February 17 2012, 08:09 AM   #80
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Re: The highlights of Nemesis

I like the music, the green mutara nebula and LT DATAs suicide. He pretended it was to save the ship but we all know it was for some other reason he killed himself.

No um really the best part was the escape from Shinzons ship and when they steal picard from enterprise, he finally decides to stop putzing around and go thru w his evil plot, after he already killed the senate so yeah... go thru with it.
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Old February 17 2012, 10:20 AM   #81
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Re: The highlights of Nemesis

davejames wrote: View Post
Yeah we're not given any indication at all for why Shinzon has it in so badly for Earth. About the most we can surmise is that it comes from jealousy over Picard's perfect life, and a desire to make Earth pay for not rescuing him or something.

But the movie never really suggests or explores any of that.
Watching the special features on the dvd, the creative team used themes from the last Arthurian legend. Notably the Battle of Camlann, where Arthur's son Mordred kills him.

With Picard=Arthur and Shinzon=Mordred.
Arthur neither Aruthur or Picard have any children to continue their lines. Both are great and renowned warriors.

Arthur was initally happy to find out Mordred was his son. He felt he could be the worth heir to all that Arthur built. Similarly Picard put alot of trust and hope in Shinzon. With Shinzon's talks of peace between the Federation and Romulus. Picard probably felt this was a chance to have a part of himself continue doing great things.

Mordred betrayed Arthur and sought to destroy everything Aruthur stood and fought for and kill Arthur. Shinzon withheld his true intentions from Picard. Until he was caught with a WMD biogenics weapon, and later tried to kill Picard 3x.

Mordred and Shinzon's vendettas against their "fathers" are personal. Mordred is young and want to forge his own kingdom of war, but first has to snuff out his old man. Alot of people think Shinzon parallels Khan, but not really. That title goes to the holo-clone character that is Nero of ST09. Compared to Picard, Shinzon went from being a promising infiltration clone, to slave, to shock trooper in the Dominion war, to successful military commander, to Praetor of the entire Romulan Star Empire. Picard has done a lion share of great things, but he really only captains a ship in the larger scale of the galaxy. In the film Shinzon does voice his hatred that he is only a shadow, or echo of Picard and that his life has no meaning while Picard still exists. The plan was always to decimate Earth, but for Shinzon it became a pressing priority. If he succeed, then Picard, and everything he stood for would be figuratively null and void. There would be no Federation or history record of Picard's deeds of beliefs. Shinzon did say that his name would echo through eternity while Picards would fade into a dim memory.

Lastly Shinzon and Mordred's deaths are the same. Arthur impales his son on a lance, and Picard kills his clone with a lance like object. In the Battle of Camlann, Arthur too was mortally struck and died of his injuries. I am one of the few people who think it would've been better for Picard to die and not Data. While Data's sacrifice was as noble as Spock's in TWOK. I think they could've done a better job in making it special. I think we the fans and general audiences forget that Data is an android who is learning to be human. The theme of an artificial life form willing committing and acknowleding the concept of self sacrifice is powerful. Brent Spiner in interviews said that was his intentions with Data's death, but people missed point.

If Picard had died then the crew would'nt have split up at the end of the movie. Riker would've been promoted to captain of the Ent-E since he was technically still commander of that ship. Data and Worf would've been promoted. Beverly would've likely stayed on, to the family together and such as the crew would fondly remember Picard and all the times they shared.

Spelling it out like this the movie could have been ZOMG amazeballs story wise. But Stuart Baird wasn't hired to direct a thought provoking drama, he was hired to direct and action movie. All the themes i brought up are in the movie but you would have to know what John Logan and Spiner were aiming for to fully get the message.
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Old February 17 2012, 01:21 PM   #82
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Re: The highlights of Nemesis

While I read with interest your Arthur comparison to Nemesis (and actually agree with some of your line of reasoning), this...

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
The plan was always to decimate Earth, but for Shinzon it became a pressing priority. If he succeed, then Picard, and everything he stood for would be figuratively null and void. There would be no Federation or history record of Picard's deeds of beliefs.
...is still kinda flimsy. The fact of the matter is, going just by what we see in the film, Shinzon's decision to attack Earth came literally out of nowhere. With all due respect to what you and Timo think, the movie gives zero indication that Shinzon had any intentions at all about Earth until Donatra and her ilk pushed him into finally attacking "the Federation." The only "pressing priority" on Shinzon's mind was fucking around with Troi and trying to get Picard's blood in order to survive (and both of which he did extremely ineptly).

If Shinzon really wanted the best of both worlds, he would have tried to attack Romulus instead. That way he could have taken out his revenge on his true oppressors, and proven to Picard that he was the badass warrior he always wanted to show Picard he was. All destroying Earth would have done was show Shinzon as a sadistic butcher who killed completely innocent people.

Earth had nothing to do with this movie at all. The only reason why Shinzon decides to attack it instead of Romulus was because the writers probably felt attacking Earth would have had more of a dramatic impact on the audience than Romulus would have (which IMHO is a load of crap).
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Old February 17 2012, 02:06 PM   #83
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Re: The highlights of Nemesis

sonak wrote: View Post
IMO Shinzon wanting to wipe out Picard and humanity because they lived such privalaged lives while he suffered endlessly, and because he's a copy of a great man and would never fit in there, was believable. It didn't make rational sense, but it wasn't meant to.

I don't think he was supposed to be insane. If he was, it kind of ruins the whole "dark mirror" angle of the character, as if he's genuinely crazy, his motives and actions aren't going to be rational or worth much analysis.
I agree that is crossing the line to making an excuse for the film - in real ife sometimes people do random irrational things because they go nuts, killing your wife's lover in a fit of passion for example.

Spending years on a plan is not the work of a crazy person though, there is motivation. Hitler really genuinely believed all the stuff he spouted about Jews, Untermensch and so on, and lots of people still believe it all. He was a mass murdering evil bastard but he HAD motivation. The same goes for the 9/11 attacks, the attackers were not crazy, they HAD motivation for what they did.

So shinzon could easily have been written as an evil murdering bastard, which is just fine, but he needed a motivation for his actions explained on-screen to the viewer.

I actually quite like Nemesis, but the script needed some re-writes to better develop what could have been a very interesting villain. It doesn't take much, look at Khan for example, motivation for revenge on Kirk.. "they killed lots of my friends, and my wife, because that bastard Kirk left me here.." no problem!

The closest you get in NEM is Shinzon's line "the victory of the echo over the voice" where he seems to be positing that he is showing his superiority to Picard by destroying everything he cares about. I don't believe it though, RE-WRITES NEEDED!
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Old February 17 2012, 02:51 PM   #84
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Re: The highlights of Nemesis

Dukhat wrote: View Post
While I read with interest your Arthur comparison to Nemesis (and actually agree with some of your line of reasoning), this...

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
The plan was always to decimate Earth, but for Shinzon it became a pressing priority. If he succeed, then Picard, and everything he stood for would be figuratively null and void. There would be no Federation or history record of Picard's deeds of beliefs.
...is still kinda flimsy. The fact of the matter is, going just by what we see in the film, Shinzon's decision to attack Earth came literally out of nowhere. With all due respect to what you and Timo think, the movie gives zero indication that Shinzon had any intentions at all about Earth until Donatra and her ilk pushed him into finally attacking "the Federation." The only "pressing priority" on Shinzon's mind was fucking around with Troi and trying to get Picard's blood in order to survive (and both of which he did extremely ineptly).

If Shinzon really wanted the best of both worlds, he would have tried to attack Romulus instead. That way he could have taken out his revenge on his true oppressors, and proven to Picard that he was the badass warrior he always wanted to show Picard he was. All destroying Earth would have done was show Shinzon as a sadistic butcher who killed completely innocent people.

Earth had nothing to do with this movie at all. The only reason why Shinzon decides to attack it instead of Romulus was because the writers probably felt attacking Earth would have had more of a dramatic impact on the audience than Romulus would have (which IMHO is a load of crap).
I totally agree with you that Romulus should have been Shinzon's target. A genocidal coup d'eat, and a battle with the Ent-E and Romulan warbirds in the skies above Romulus was an idea I've held for Nemesis for a long time. Saving the Romulans from extinction by thalaron would've mirrored TUC and Kirk and crews last mission saving the Klingon who were in that time the biggest threat to the galaxy.

Nemesis isn't a terrible movie, it just sucks as the final TNG film. Had competition not been so heavy in 2002, Nemesis could've done $120-150 million easy.
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Old February 17 2012, 04:35 PM   #85
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Re: The highlights of Nemesis

But Shinzon conquered Romulus. He was the freakin' Praetor! They're his subjects now, after a life of being opressed by them. That's far better than killing them.
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Old February 17 2012, 06:22 PM   #86
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Re: The highlights of Nemesis

Is it, though? You're ruling a planet where the entire populace (including the military) hates your guts, and the guts of the Remans you're allied with. I totally see a coup d'état in his future if he were to have survived.
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Old February 17 2012, 06:27 PM   #87
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Re: The highlights of Nemesis

double post
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Old February 18 2012, 12:40 PM   #88
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Re: The highlights of Nemesis

I think Shinzon made a lousy substitute for Khan, but the character in concept could have made for a good Darth Vader, and that story would have been a good way to return to TNG's roots. In the pilot, Q urges Picard to use the ships weapons against the mysterious threat over Farpoint, but Picard opts for nonviolent solution, setting the stage for the series. It could have been reflected in the film with Picard, like Luke Skywalker, finding a way to reach and redeem the enemy that everyone is telling him to kill. Preferably in a less cheesy way than Return of the Jedi handles it.

One of NEM’s myriad flaws is that it seems to forget Picard’s sobbing in GEN that “There will be no more Picards.” Shouldn’t there have been signs of hope, love, relief, something positive on his discovery that there actually is another Picard? It would have been a satisfying way to wrap up the TNG saga if a redeemed enemy became the vehicle by which the Picard family got new life.
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Old February 18 2012, 01:05 PM   #89
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Re: The highlights of Nemesis

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
But Shinzon conquered Romulus. He was the freakin' Praetor! They're his subjects now, after a life of being opressed by them. That's far better than killing them.
One of the weakest points of the film. He casually assassinates the entire government of a planet with probably billions of people, and nobody cares, and nobody cares about those billions who don't care. Stuff like that is what diminishes the scope of a film's story. And that's also where the lack of a Spock storyline became badly apparent. He wouldn't just sit back doing nothing if something like this happened.
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Old February 18 2012, 02:25 PM   #90
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Re: The highlights of Nemesis

captrek wrote: View Post
One of NEM’s myriad flaws is that it seems to forget Picard’s sobbing in GEN that “There will be no more Picards.” Shouldn’t there have been signs of hope, love, relief, something positive on his discovery that there actually is another Picard? It would have been a satisfying way to wrap up the TNG saga if a redeemed enemy became the vehicle by which the Picard family got new life.
Excellent point.

The TNG films really needed something to tie them together as one saga. A character arc for Picard and/or some of the other characters would have benefited the films a lot. Instead, each film just feels like its own stand alone story.
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