Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

[Saito S]

Anwar wrote:

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No, not really. They don't have their own webpage or Anti-VOY Legion meetings, but there are plenty folks who just never liked the show right from the start for a variety of reasons: Woman Captain, "Lost in Space" knock-off, etc.

There are "plenty folks" who dislike lots of things from day one for various reasons, including every TV show in the history of TV shows. Some of it is rational, some of it is not. Still doesn't prove the existence of a Hatedome.

And yes, there is a HUGE difference. You can refuse to acknowledge that if you like; it's not my problem.

(Que counter arguments: they hated Voyager for existing, or for not being exactly like TNG and/or DS9, they made your life miserable for ten years as you valiantly rode to the show's defense, etc...)

But it's still a common critique made by the Hatedom.

Even if it is a common complaint, it still has absolutely nothing to do with the point you are responding to. I will take your refusal to even acknowledge that point as an admission that the outrageous claims to which I WAS referring (i.e. the idea that VOY detractors wanted the ship destroyed, wanted every character to be a blubbering mess suffering from PTSD, wanted Janeway to be blowing up planets, etc.), claims that you have made dozens of times, are all in fact nonsense.

And for the last time, there IS. NO. HATEDOME! It is pure fiction. You made it up. Or, someone else made it up, and you latched onto it. Either way, it doesn't exist.

They sure put more research and effort into their findings and conclusions than anyone saying the TC is bigger and stronger.

"They" (meaning the link you provided) say nothing about the tactical cube's power, only its size. The only one trying to say it's actually significantly weaker than the BoBW cube is you.

And it's also worth pointing out that some in-depth fan sites agree with me: that the tactical cube is, if anything, more powerful than a "normal" cube, and that the relative size is too hard to pin down. DITL, for example.

It really isn't significantly smaller, just stretched longer. Not the best comparison.

Yeah, being 13-18 (depending on which of the three provided deck #'s you go with for the Sov) decks shorter, and only a little over half as wide, as the Galaxy sure isn't significant.

I'm using real life terminology, Tactical is short-term and immediate combat whereas Strategic is the long-term war-winning stuff.

I know what you meant. It still doesn't make sense. There's no inherent meaning of "more powerful/effective" or "less powerful/effective." It's really more like "larger scope/long term" vs. "shorter scope/short term".

And even in real life, applying "tactical" to something usually means it's more powerful than a normal thing that lacks the word. This is especially true in Trek, where "tactical" is used to mean "combat specialist" all the damn time, and "strategic" is never used to designate anything, except for Worf on DS9 (because of his role in coordinating large numbers of Starfleet assets; it has nothing to do with how strong anything is).

Which again, indicates it's more for the battles and engagements before proper assimilation (With the big Cubes) and thus less powerful than the bigger Cubes needed to take out planets.

That's ridiculous. The ship that's "more for battles" as you say would need to be more powerful in combat. "take out planets" clearly doesn't mean "blow up planets with firepower", since we've never seen the Borg DO that. The only thing that would be required of an "assimilation" cube would be lots of equipment for processing large groups of people, and for "scooping up" (to quote Worf) machinery or structures of interest. This would occur AFTER the planet's defenses had already been softened up... which would probably be done by tactical cubes. Because they have better weapons.

You are proving my point. Thanks man.

And without true comparison to other Borg vessels, it could just mean "Heavily Armed compared to that Probe you fought a year ago."

No it couldn't. Because that would be a stupid thing to mean on Seven's part.

The context of the conversation is: Janeway wants to attack a Borg ship. "How about this one?" Seven isn't so sure. "That's a tactical cube, heavily armed."

The CLEAR implication is "heavily armed as Borg ships go. REALLY tough to fight. Pick a different one, please."

If you don't see the logic in that, then I don't know what to tell you.

The rest of your post is all utter hogwash that has been debunked repeatedly, so I'm not going to bother.

[Anwar]

Saito S wrote:

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There are "plenty folks" who dislike lots of things from day one for various reasons, including every TV show in the history of TV shows. Some of it is rational, some of it is not. Still doesn't prove the existence of a Hatedome.

VOY is the only Trek show that gets its degree of hatred even from the mainstream. Even Enterprise isn't as harshly treated.

Even if it is a common complaint, it still has absolutely nothing to do with the point you are responding to. I will take your refusal to even acknowledge that point as an admission that the outrageous claims to which I WAS referring (i.e. the idea that VOY detractors wanted the ship destroyed, wanted every character to be a blubbering mess suffering from PTSD, wanted Janeway to be blowing up planets, etc.), claims that you have made dozens of times, are all in fact nonsense.

Go read any "VOY should've been like NuBSG!" topics out there.

And for the last time, there IS. NO. HATEDOME! It is pure fiction. You made it up. Or, someone else made it up, and you latched onto it. Either way, it doesn't exist.

It does, not on these forums (anymore) but it does.

"They" (meaning the link you provided) say nothing about the tactical cube's power, only its size. The only one trying to say it's actually significantly weaker than the BoBW cube is you.

It's smaller, slower and doesn't one-shot kill anything like the Assimilation Cube did.

Yeah, being 13-18 (depending on which of the three provided deck #'s you go with for the Sov) decks shorter, and only a little over half as wide, as the Galaxy sure isn't significant.

That's still nowhere near as big the difference as the Tactical Cube/Assimilation Cube gulf (with the TC being like 1/4 or so the size of the AC if not smaller).

I know what you meant. It still doesn't make sense. There's no inherent meaning of "more powerful/effective" or "less powerful/effective." It's really more like "larger scope/long term" vs. "shorter scope/short term".

Typically, something meant for long-term usage/large scope is going to be more powerful/important than something for shorter-scope/short term usage.

And even in real life, applying "tactical" to something usually means it's more powerful than a normal thing that lacks the word.

In real life, I'm pretty sure they don't refer to one warship as a "Tactical Warship" compared to another. Warships are warships, but in Trek the term "tactical" is used synonymously with any type of warship. Seeing how all Borg vessels are Warships more or less, the Tactical name probably just is the same as the real-life meaning of a shorter-term/smaller scope battle-vessel.

That's ridiculous. The ship that's "more for battles" as you say would need to be more powerful in combat.

More for short-term battles meant for softening them up for full-on Assimilation (which requires more effort than just blowing up ships), like the first wave/opening salvo of an invasion.

The only thing that would be required of an "assimilation" cube would be lots of equipment for processing large groups of people, and for "scooping up" (to quote Worf) machinery or structures of interest.

All of which would require a lot more power, strength and durability/endurance than a vessel meant solely for fighting starships (and more likely to be destroyed).

This would occur AFTER the planet's defenses had already
been softened up... which would probably be done by tactical cubes. Because they have better weapons.

Or because they're smaller, weaker, more expendable and less likely to do well with a planetary assault. Like how the Feds still send in Peregrine Fighters and Mirandas as part of the first wave in fleet engagements instead of the big tough Capital ships all the time.

The CLEAR implication is "heavily armed as Borg ships go. REALLY tough to fight. Pick a different one, please."

The Sphere from "Drone" was also "Tactical" but she said nothing like that, and by then they'd already faced a Probe (even though reaction to them beating THAT was negative) so that was the gauge by which they measured Borg vessel strength (seeing how they never fought an Assimilation Cube themselves). "Heavily armed compared to the other vessels we've fought" not "It's the most powerful Cube ever!"

The rest of your post is all utter hogwash that has been debunked repeatedly, so I'm not going to bother.

Look, we've seen in TNG and DS9 that the Borg one-shot kill Feds ships but the ENT-D always survived the same type of assault. So why does VOY have to be one-shot killed but not the ENT-D, ENT-E or Defiant?

[Sandoval]

This is a fascinating contest over who can make the most unnecessarily long post with the most quotations in it.

Because whoever makes the longest post is the true winner of the argument.

[The Overlord]

Why are people saying Voyager weakened the Borg? Well its because of episodes like Unimatrix Zero:

http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated...part-1-5933235

http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated...part-2-5944871

http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated...part-3-5950213

[Anwar]

Look, being de-assimilated is NOT the huge emasculation everyone thinks it is because we knew it was possible from the very first time we ever saw assimilation. Picard got de-assimilated between scenes, all he had were some bandages on his face! His real trauma was the mental one, and what the Borg forced him to do (slaughter thousands, nearly destroy Earth) none of which happened to Janeway and co (they weren't used to kill people or destroy Earth).

Nearly everything about Unimatrix was set up from prior episodes:

1) Renegade Borg? We saw how it happened in "I, Borg" and "Descent" except here it's beneficial rather than to create a new threat.

2) Being able to develop ways of resisting assimilation? They had Crushers' studies of Locutus and Hugh, as well as their own studies of Seven and other Borg tech. It's silly to think that they wouldn't even try to create some vaccination against assimilation.

Hell, maybe it's just because VOY played an important role in this story that riles people up. If it had been Hugh and his group of Rebel Borg who cooked up the scheme and VOY offered to help, the audience wouldn't have been so pissed.

[Saito S]

Anwar wrote:

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Go read any "VOY should've been like NuBSG!" topics out there.

Let me put it another way. You have claimed, repeatedly, that people actually wanted the ship to be in "Year of Hell" shape, all the time, and that the majority of the cast should be cold-blooded killers, and or post-breakdown, PTSD-suffering messes, and that Janeway should have been going around demanding supplies from alien races and blowing up their planets if refused. You claimed that VOY detractors actually wanted those specific things on multiple occasions.

Direct enough for you?

(My prediction: No.)

It does, not on these forums (anymore) but it does.

It doesn't. Never did.

That's still nowhere near as big the difference as the Tactical Cube/Assimilation Cube gulf (with the TC being like 1/4 or so the size of the AC if not smaller).

There's no definitive proof of that, sorry.

Typically, something meant for long-term usage/large scope is going to be more powerful/important than something for shorter-scope/short term usage.

That doesn't make any sense. We are talking about ships. There's no such thing as a "strategic ship." That difference between strategy and tactics that you are referring to has more to do with doctrine and methodology than it does the actual firepower present in a given combat vehicle.

Trek uses "tactical", as applied to ships and people, to mean "focused on combat." It may not sync up perfectly with how the term is used in real life, but that's still how Trek does use it.

More for short-term battles meant for softening them up for full-on Assimilation (which requires more effort than just blowing up ships), like the first wave/opening salvo of an invasion.

All of which would require a lot more power, strength and durability/endurance than a vessel meant solely for fighting starships (and more likely to be destroyed).

So the ships that move in after the fighting is over, tasked with assimilating lots of helpless civilians and dismantling/transporting machines and structures, need more strength and durability than the ships that move in initially, fighting enemy starships, breaking down their defenses, and taking the brunt of whatever resistance the species might offer.

In other news, the sky is purple and up is down!

not "It's the most powerful Cube ever!"

Never claimed it was "the most powerful cube ever!". All I've been trying to do is point out the lack of logic implicit in claiming that it must be weaker than a "standard" (or "assimilation") cube. Which I have more than adequately done, and this particular topic has run its course.

As to the rest: you responded to my assertion that it was all hogwash by yammering about the Borg one-shot killing this ship or that. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, but my statement about hogwash stands.

Sandoval wrote:

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This is a fascinating contest over who can make the most unnecessarily long post with the most quotations in it.

What do I get if I win?!

Because whoever makes the longest post is the true winner of the argument.

Aww, this post is substantially shorter than the previous ones, so I guess I lose.

[The Overlord]

Anwar wrote:

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Look, being de-assimilated is NOT the huge emasculation everyone thinks it is because we knew it was possible from the very first time we ever saw assimilation. Picard got de-assimilated between scenes, all he had were some bandages on his face! His real trauma was the mental one, and what the Borg forced him to do (slaughter thousands, nearly destroy Earth) none of which happened to Janeway and co (they weren't used to kill people or destroy Earth).

Except the Borg often replace people's arms and eyes with robotic replacements, so trying to get assimilated on purpose is like playing Russian Roulette with your body parts. Picard got lucky and didn't have any major body parts removed and he didn't choose to get assimilated. Janeway and friends letting themselves willingly get assimilated is extremely foolish.

Plus assimilation seems far less scary if the Voyager crew can just use technobabble to counter it.

Anwar wrote:

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Nearly everything about Unimatrix was set up from prior episodes:

1) Renegade Borg? We saw how it happened in "I, Borg" and "Descent" except here it's beneficial rather than to create a new threat.

That doesn't make it good, especially when these rebels manage to take over a Borg Sphere, despite being a tiny minority in the Borg, there shouldn't have been enough rebel drones on the Sphere to take it over.

Anwar wrote:

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2) Being able to develop ways of resisting assimilation? They had Crushers' studies of Locutus and Hugh, as well as their own studies of Seven and other Borg tech. It's silly to think that they wouldn't even try to create some vaccination against assimilation.

That's a huge leap, going from Dr. Crusher's research and seven's knowledge of the Borg, to just whipping up a Vaccination against assimilation. Sounds like the worse kind of techno-babble to me.

Anwar wrote:

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Hell, maybe it's just because VOY played an important role in this story that riles people up. If it had been Hugh and his group of Rebel Borg who cooked up the scheme and VOY offered to help, the audience wouldn't have been so pissed.

Except a lot of people didn't like Descent either, but Unimatrix Zero is worse in terms of writing.

Plus there are other things you didn't touch on that were mentioned in that review, like the Borg Queen blowing up her own ships. That makes the Borg seem supremely stupid, no one won a battle by destroying their own forces.

[Anwar]

I'll reply to Saito later.

The Overlord wrote:

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Except the Borg often replace people's arms and eyes with robotic replacements, so trying to get assimilated on purpose is like playing Russian Roulette with your body parts. Picard got lucky and didn't have any major body parts removed and he didn't choose to get assimilated. Janeway and friends letting themselves willingly get assimilated is extremely foolish.

But bottom line is, Picard didn't have his limbs/eyes/other stuff replaced. And aside from the thing on her eye that also goes inside her head, which is more likely from being assimilated as a child, neither did Seven. The two regular characters who were Borg and neither had themselves sliced up like that, so why can't Janeway get away with the same thing?

Plus assimilation seems far less scary if the Voyager crew can just use technobabble to counter it.

It's not technobabble, it's vaccine. And it was only temporary. Hell, all it took for Hugh to be de-assimilated was being bounced around a lot in a ship crash.

That doesn't make it good, especially when these rebels manage to take over a Borg Sphere, despite being a tiny minority in the Borg, there shouldn't have been enough rebel drones on the Sphere to take it over.

There shouldn't have been enough Renegade Borg in Hugh's group to crew that huge ship while still leaving an army on their HQ planet (their ship was just a scout vessel). Didn't stop them.

That's a huge leap, going from Dr. Crusher's research and seven's knowledge of the Borg, to just whipping up a Vaccination against assimilation. Sounds like the worse kind of techno-babble to me.

They studied Hugh well enough to know how to program a mental virus into him if need be. And they studied Borg nanites pretty extensively in "Scorpion" as well to learn how to re-program them. From all that, is it SO hard to believe they could make a vaccine that temporarily would stall the nanites?

Except a lot of people didn't like Descent either, but Unimatrix Zero is worse in terms of writing.

But Descent still happened with nowhere near the complaining all of VOY's Borg stories got (Unity, Scorpion, etc).

Plus there are other things you didn't touch on that were mentioned in that review, like the Borg Queen blowing up her own ships. That makes the Borg seem supremely stupid, no one won a battle by destroying their own forces.

It was her sadistic way of saying "Look, the Collective is so vast and these Renegades are so few in number that blowing up one Cube does more damage to their forces than to the Collective."

It'd be no different from the Dominion being willing to blow up an entire ship of Jem'Hadar if it meant killing a few of the crew who were the "don't need Ketracel-White" mutants.

[The Overlord]

Anwar wrote:

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I'll reply to Saito later.



But bottom line is, Picard didn't have his limbs/eyes/other stuff replaced. And aside from the thing on her eye that also goes inside her head, which is more likely from being assimilated as a child, neither did Seven. The two regular characters who were Borg and neither had themselves sliced up like that, so why can't Janeway get away with the same thing?

And in Russian Roulette, not everyone who plays dies, still doesn't make playing a good idea.

There is a possibility that your body parts will be replaced, so Janeway and friends being assimilated on purpose still seems stupid.

Anwar wrote:

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It's not technobabble, it's vaccine. And it was only temporary. Hell, all it took for Hugh to be de-assimilated was being bounced around a lot in a ship crash.

And that's pretty silly too.

Anwar wrote:

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There shouldn't have been enough Renegade Borg in Hugh's group to crew that huge ship while still leaving an army on their HQ planet (their ship was just a scout vessel). Didn't stop them.

Hugh's scout ship is the one that crashed on the planet, I'm pretty sure Hugh was retrieved by a Borg Cube.

Anwar wrote:

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They studied Hugh well enough to know how to program a mental virus into him if need be. And they studied Borg nanites pretty extensively in "Scorpion" as well to learn how to re-program them. From all that, is it SO hard to believe they could make a vaccine that temporarily would stall the nanites?

Perhaps, but frankly it does make Assimilation seem less scary if they can just whip up a vaccine for it. The event that scared Picard's life is treated as trivial in this ep.

Anwar wrote:

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But Descent still happened with nowhere near the complaining all of VOY's Borg stories got (Unity, Scorpion, etc).

Why don't you go over the TNG board and ask them if they think Descent was a good episode.

Anwar wrote:

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It was her sadistic way of saying "Look, the Collective is so vast and these Renegades are so few in number that blowing up one Cube does more damage to their forces than to the Collective."

It'd be no different from the Dominion being willing to blow up an entire ship of Jem'Hadar if it meant killing a few of the crew who were the "don't need Ketracel-White" mutants.

The Borg are supposed to be obsessed with efficiency, that's why they only send one Cube to conquer Earth. The Queen blowing her ships is extremely wasteful. It goes counter to watch the Borg are supposed to be.

Sfdebris mentioned that if the Queen had simply disconnected drones from the Collective and then had them beg for their lives before killing them, that have a bigger impact than blowing up a ship far away and be more efficient.

[exodus]

IMO I often find Sfdebris' reviews/opinions very short sighted.
He doesn't understand metaphor's at all.
The Queen saw Unimatrix Zero as a cancer within the "body" of the Borg.
You don't make cancer beg, you cut it out to stop it from spreading.
Making the Drones beg would ruin the meaning of the metaphor
Blowing up the Cubes was her cutting out the disease.
It still holds true to the metaphor Dr. Crusher used to describe the Collective.

[Guy Gardener]

That was a metaphor?

I took Unimatrix Zero to be literally be cancer, form the Borgs perspective.

[jpch]

The Overlord wrote:

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Why are people saying Voyager weakened the Borg? Well its because of episodes like Unimatrix Zero:

http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated...part-1-5933235

http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated...part-2-5944871

http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated...part-3-5950213

are you kidding me these people have the most subjective reviews,all they do is hate on Voy check their forums. ugh.

[jpch]

Sandoval wrote:

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Indeed.

Almost as if the CGI Voyager special-effects from the later seasons were a decade more advanced than the huge physical models used to film the Enterprise-D isn't it?

Although the CGI Galaxies in DS9 moved about quite a bit now I think about it.

Damn those people you mention and their idiotic comments...

you are a very annoying and idiotic person. check season 1 of Voyager where they used models just like TNG in episodes like ''ex post facto'' etc... you will understand how fast an intrepid moves.

[jpch]

Hell, maybe it's just because VOY played an important role in this story that riles people up. If it had been Hugh and his group of Rebel Borg who cooked up the scheme and VOY offered to help, the audience wouldn't have been so pissed.[/QUOTE]


Exactly all those TNG fan boys cant even accept something positive to come out of Voyager.

[jpch]

You_Will_Fail wrote:

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Voyager was going to be DESTROYED by a sphere in "Drone" despite the help from a 29th century drone. Voyager taking on a tactical cube in "Unimatrix Zero" was a load of bullsh*t, nothing can change my mind on that. That whole episode was awful and the first truly terrible Borg episode in my opinion (although I thought "Collective" wasn't very good), you can refer to sfdebris's recent review on how inept it was.

Voyager was going at full impulse around the cube firing all weapons and barely damaging it...i don't see you people mind that a Galaxy class blew up a cube in BOBW LOL and sfdebris are bullshit all the reviews are made by VoY Hater not objective at all.