Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

[Anwar]

You_Will_Fail wrote:

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Because its completely idiotic based on what we've seen of previous encounters with the Borg?

Not really, the Tactical Cube was smaller and weaker than the Assimilation Cube (the one from "Q,Who?" and BOBW) and the Ent-D took plenty of punishment from that ship without being destroyed.

[You_Will_Fail]

Anwar wrote:

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Not really, the Tactical Cube was smaller and weaker than the Assimilation Cube (the one from "Q,Who?" and BOBW)

LOL NO. You keep saying that and it continues to sound like total and utter bullshit to me.

[Saito S]

You_Will_Fail wrote:

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LOL NO. You keep saying that and it continues to sound like total and utter bullshit to me.

It is.

Anwar went round 'n round with several people back in this thread's previous life, and - unsurprisingly - there isn't any actual evidence that a "Tactical Cube", a ship described as being "heavily armed", would be weaker than the cube seen in BoBW. Even the notion that it was physically smaller was left ambiguous after the dust had settled. Also, he is again employing the completely made-up term "Assimilation Cube" and throwing it about as if it were a long-established thing that everyone knows, despite the fact that the phrase "Assimilation Cube" has never been uttered on screen.

[Anwar]

I try to defend both VOY and the Borg in a manner that keeps both the VOY fans and the Borg fans happy, and I still get nothing but criticism. Figures.

Does anyone complain that Crusher took out the Renegade Borg Cruiser in "Descent"? No.

Does anyone think the Ent-D or Ent-E could never defeat a Borg Probe ship? No.

Does anyone think that VOY could survive any encounters with the Borg, even if all they do is sh*t themselves and run away? No.

[Saito S]

And here we go again.

Anwar wrote:

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I try to defend both VOY and the Borg in a manner that keeps both the VOY fans and the Borg fans happy, and I still get nothing but criticism. Figures.

Is that why you're here? To try and mollify these two groups that are constantly at each other's throats? (Disclaimer: no one is actually at anyone's throat)

This isn't about you trying to make people happy, it's about you saying something that is incorrect, and then repeating that same thing over and over.

Does anyone complain that Crusher took out the Renegade Borg Cruiser in "Descent"? No.

Of course they don't. They used a frakking solar flare to destroy it. Complaining that the Borg should be able to withstand natural destructive forces of that magnitude would be silly. Also, it wasn't a normal Borg ship.

Does anyone think the Ent-D or Ent-E could never defeat a Borg Probe ship? No.

Good thing no one believes that Voyager could never do the same, then.

Does anyone think that VOY could survive any encounters with the Borg, even if all they do is sh*t themselves and run away? No.

What? That last one didn't even make any sense.

[You_Will_Fail]

Its kind of pointless "defending" something by making crap up

[Anwar]

Saito S wrote:

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And here we go again.

Defending TV shows is the never-ending battle, buddy...

Is that why you're here? To try and mollify these two groups that are constantly at each other's throats? (Disclaimer: no one is actually at anyone's throat)

I try.

This isn't about you trying to make people happy, it's about you saying something that is incorrect, and then repeating that same thing over and over.

I try to point out the differences between the Borg ships encountered so to better justify VOY's survival without having to say "The Borg were weakened." I don't see the problem with pointing out the differences between the Assimilation Cube (I got the name from the Armada video games) and the Tactical Cube so to extrapolate that the Tactical Cube was weaker than the Assimilation Cube. Yes, they said it was heavily armed, but they never said "It's heavily armed compared to the Assimilation Cube."

Of course they don't. They used a frakking solar flare to destroy it. Complaining that the Borg should be able to withstand natural destructive forces of that magnitude would be silly. Also, it wasn't a normal Borg ship.

If Voyager had done the same thing to the Tactical Cube, the response WOULD be that the ship should've survived the power of a Sun. BOBW never said that a Sun was powerful enough to destroy a Borg ship, after all.

And that ship was a Borg vessel, we see it again on a Borg viewscreen in "Dark Frontier". And even if it wasn't, it still had to have been built from the original Borg ship Hugh and his crew were traveling in (it has the Borg colors, the same green energy and sound FX).

Good thing no one believes that Voyager could never do the same, then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bkw69E_C4g

What? That last one didn't even make any sense.

The idea being that VOY should've been destroyed in one shot from any Borg vessel, never should've been able to run from any Borg vessels, any assimilated people should never be de-assimilatible (despite TNG showing otherwise).

Its kind of pointless "defending" something by making crap u

Seeing how a lot of the stuff about the Borg is really just made up/fandom assumptions, fair's fair.

[Guy Gardener]

Do you remember the opening sequences to The Last Boy Scout?

The Foot ball player with the gun only shot the players directly inbetween him and the goal line.

I saw the pilot to Benson this morning.

kraus and Benson had this hilarious altercation in two parts.

The first was about how she now works under him.

"I do not work under you! I work around you, or through you. The choice is up to you!"

The second was about leftovers in the fridge.

"If I see anything in my fridge dressed in clingwrap, I will kill you."

I think that's relevant?

[Saito S]

Anwar wrote:

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Defending TV shows is the never-ending battle, buddy...

It's a never ending battle alright. Especially when it comes down to one guy repeatedly yelling about a Hatedome that doesn't exist, counter-attacking against outrageous claims that were never actually made, and rolling back the conversation every time it comes up again, acting like the previous twenty blow-ups never even happened.

I try.

Way to miss the point.

Let me spell it out: the bit after the word "Disclaimer" was the important part.

I try to point out the differences between the Borg ships encountered so to better justify VOY's survival without having to say "The Borg were weakened." I don't see the problem with pointing out the differences between the Assimilation Cube (I got the name from the Armada video games) and the Tactical Cube so to extrapolate that the Tactical Cube was weaker than the Assimilation Cube. Yes, they said it was heavily armed, but they never said "It's heavily armed compared to the Assimilation Cube."

So you're saying that you don't see the problem with:
-declaring that the BoBW cube is called an "Assimilation Cube"... even though it's not
-then declaring that it's substantially different than the "Tactical Cube" encountered by Voyager and described by Seven... even though there is no proof that it IS all that different
-then "extrapolating" that it's not only substantially different, but weaker than the other cube, despite the fact that the tactical cube is the only Borg ship in the history of Trek to be referred to as "heavily armed"
-and the basis for this is that the crew didn't explicitly say that it WASN'T weaker.

...yeah, no problem there at all.

If Voyager had done the same thing to the Tactical Cube, the response WOULD be that the ship should've survived the power of a Sun. BOBW never said that a Sun was powerful enough to destroy a Borg ship, after all.

I'm not going to waste time writing huge paragraphs of text debunking this - again - so I will just say: no, the response wouldn't have been that. That's nonsense.

And that ship was a Borg vessel, we see it again on a Borg viewscreen in "Dark Frontier".

So? All that proves is that as of several years after "Descent", the Borg were aware of the ship type used by Lore and the rogues. Doesn't mean it was one of theirs.

And even if it wasn't, it still had to have been built from the original Borg ship Hugh and his crew were traveling in (it has the Borg colors, the same green energy and sound FX).

Yeah, cause only the Borg have green energy weapons.

Let's also ignore the fact that it uses a method or propulsion that the Borg are NEVER seen using, and that if it were a "proper" Borg ship, it would be the only one that is asymmetrical and blocky and lumpy and... looks nothing at all like a Borg ship, basically.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bkw69E_C4g

Seriously? So some random Youtube guy thinks Voyager shouldn't be able to take on a probe, and that proves your point?

The idea being that VOY should've been destroyed in one shot from any Borg vessel, never should've been able to run from any Borg vessels, any assimilated people should never be de-assimilatible (despite TNG showing otherwise).

Ah yes, back to the extremes. You do realize the only one on this board who has ever brought up this "ALWAYS DOOMED ALL THE TIME" scenario is you?

Seeing how a lot of the stuff about the Borg is really just made up/fandom assumptions,

Not really, no.

fair's fair.

Even if the above were true, it would mean that you were admitting to taking arguments that someone somewhere made once, years ago, and then throwing those arguments in the faces of other people - people who never made them - and accusing them of... well, of making them.

You are yet again treating those who criticize VOY as one giant monolithic entity. We are not responsible for what some irrational haters might have said eight years ago, or whatever.

Sheesh.

[Guy Gardener]

Who would win in a fight?

Francis Drake's HMS Golden Hind circa 1620 or John Kerry on his Swift Boat half way through his tour of duty during the Viet Nam War?

Without cheating, a significant tactical advantage, or a magnificent tech upgrade, Voyager shouldn't have stood a chance against a Borg Row Boat if it drew a bean on Kathy,

[Anwar]

Saito S wrote:

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It's a never ending battle alright. Especially when it comes down to one guy repeatedly yelling about a Hatedome that doesn't exist,

Even GodBen said he was a VOY Hater when he and I first entered into our own "I Hate Voy/I Love VOY" debates.

counter-attacking against outrageous claims that were never actually made,

VOY wrecked the Borg was never said by anyone?

Way to miss the point.

I'm trying to explain how it's not an emasculation of the Borg that VOY wasn't instantly destroyed by the Tactical Cube.

So you're saying that you don't see the problem with:
-declaring that the BoBW cube is called an "Assimilation Cube"... even though it's not
-then declaring that it's substantially different than the "Tactical Cube" encountered by Voyager and described by Seven... even though there is no proof that it IS all that different
-then "extrapolating" that it's not only substantially different, but weaker than the other cube, despite the fact that the tactical cube is the only Borg ship in the history of Trek to be referred to as "heavily armed"
-and the basis for this is that the crew didn't explicitly say that it WASN'T weaker.

I gave it the name it was given by the video games, since the show just has it as generic "Cube". It's not a made-up name.

It is different, even sites that try to give us facts on ship sizes and charts done by said fans say that the Assimilation Cube was much bigger than the Tactical Cube.

http://www.sideshowsito.com/wp-conte...ship_chart.gif

For example.

It's smaller, the name suggests it's for smaller-scale battles (Tactical, not Strategic), we don't see it at any major planetary assimilations (like in "Dark Frontier"), and saying it's "Heavily Armed" without any further comparison doesn't mean much. Heavily Armed compared to what, the Probe ship?

I'm not going to waste time writing huge paragraphs of text debunking this - again - so I will just say: no, the response wouldn't have been that. That's nonsense.

The audience didn't like how being caught in a collapsing wormhole/conduit destroyed a Borg ship in "Dark Frontier", why would they be any more forgiving of a Star?

Yeah, cause only the Borg have green energy weapons.

They're the only ones who use that specific type of grey hull coloring, the only ones that give off green energy, and that TYPE of green energy weapons (compared to the Romulans, for example), yeah.

Let's also ignore the fact that it uses a method or propulsion that the Borg are NEVER seen using, and that if it were a "proper" Borg ship, it would be the only one that is asymmetrical and blocky and lumpy and... looks nothing at all like a Borg ship, basically.

The Borg Probe wasn't a perfect sphere, no one complained. And they DID use a Borg method: Transwarp Conduits.

Seriously? So some random Youtube guy thinks Voyager shouldn't be able to take on a probe, and that proves your point?

That said people exist? Yes.

Ah yes, back to the extremes. You do realize the only one on this board who has ever brought up this "ALWAYS DOOMED ALL THE TIME" scenario is you?

No, in the current VOY viewing thread "Does it get any better?" AdmiralScreed says that none of the VOY Borg stories were good because there was no sense of unbeatable doom. Especially Scorpion.

Not really, no.

The Borg aren't Galactic Enemy No.1, there are aliens out there as powerful as them if not stronger, assimilation is reversible, Borg ships can be destroyed with weaponry. All these things are true, yet the fandom act like they're not.

Even if the above were true, it would mean that you were admitting to taking arguments that someone somewhere made once, years ago, and then throwing those arguments in the faces of other people - people who never made them - and accusing them of... well, of making them.

The principles behind the hatred of VOY haven't changed, why should the arguments?

You are yet again treating those who criticize VOY as one giant monolithic entity. We are not responsible for what some irrational haters might have said eight years ago, or whatever.

It's following a legacy, just one that's lost momentum.

[Saito S]

Anwar wrote:

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Even GodBen said he was a VOY Hater when he and I first entered into our own "I Hate Voy/I Love VOY" debates.

Point out where I said "There are not, and have never been, any individuals who are or were 'haters'."

That's different from claiming the existence of an entire LEGION of angry, Voyager-hating lunatics who were out to hate the show simply for existing from day one. THAT'S what you've claimed is the case, many many times, and that's bollocks.

VOY wrecked the Borg was never said by anyone?

Sure it was. Since "VOY wrecked the Borg" is not one of the outrageous claims I was referring to, it's irrelevant.

I gave it the name it was given by the video games, since the show just has it as generic "Cube". It's not a made-up name.

Yes it is. With a few exceptions (i.e. STO, which was this HUGE project that CBS seemed to have a large hand in), the games are free to do what they want to some degree. In terms of maintaining story consistency with the body of filmed canon, TPTB are even less concerned with games than they are with novels. So it's essentially made up; i.e., it has no bearing on anything.

It is different, even sites that try to give us facts on ship sizes and charts done by said fans say that the Assimilation Cube was much bigger than the Tactical Cube.

http://www.sideshowsito.com/wp-conte...ship_chart.gif

Yes, and those sites are speculating. There is no way to know for sure, which is the point I am trying to make. Yet you keep asserting that the Tactical Cube is way less powerful as if it's accepted fact.

For example.

It's smaller,

Meaningless. The Sovereign is smaller than the Galaxy, but is tactically superior.

the name suggests it's for smaller-scale battles (Tactical, not Strategic),

Meaningless. I can't think of a single instance in Star Trek where a ship - fielded by ANY power/species - was referred to as a "strategic anything". In Star Trek, "tactical" = "tailored for combat." That's how the word is used, throughout Trekdom, consistently.

we don't see it at any major planetary assimilations (like in "Dark Frontier"),

Maybe that's because it has less of the equipment needed for assimilating large number of people than the standard cube, because it instead devotes its systems and internal volume to weapons. Hence, "Tactical" cube. Hence, it would be MORE powerful.

and saying it's "Heavily Armed" without any further comparison doesn't mean much. Heavily Armed compared to what, the Probe ship?

Seven said it in a vacuum, comparing it to nothing. She chose that wording as a warning, to try and give Janeway pause before she implemented a plan to attack it. The only logical conclusion from this context is that is is a very powerful ship, even by Borg standards.

That said people exist? Yes.

I never said they didn't.

I'll preempt your inevitable reply pointing out that I said "no one said that!", and just explain now that that's just an expression. A very common one. "Oh come on, no one does that!" or. It doesn't mean LITERALLY NO ONE on the planet. It just means that at the most, a statistically insignificant portion of the group in question (Trek fans, and mainly TrekBBS posters) say it.

No, in the current VOY viewing thread "Does it get any better?" AdmiralScreed says that none of the VOY Borg stories were good because there was no sense of unbeatable doom. Especially Scorpion.

I wasn't referring to "a sense of unbeatable doom", therefore what Screed may have said about that is irrelevant. I was referring to your EXTREME (as extreme as you can get; it would end the show) assertion that "people" wanted to see the Borg taking out the ship in one shot and other such nonsense.

The principles behind the hatred of VOY haven't changed, why should the arguments?

It's following a legacy, just one that's lost momentum.

Thank you for those utterly irrelevant non-responses.

I'll try asking the question again.

Why do you continue to take arguments that someone somewhere made once, years ago, and throw those arguments in the faces of other people - people who never made them - accusing them of taking positions they never took?

Not that I'm expecting to get an answer that makes any kind of sense.

[Deks]

You_Will_Fail wrote:

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Because its completely idiotic based on what we've seen of previous encounters with the Borg?

Sans the massacre of Wolf 359, the Enterprise-D managed to last in a firefight with a Borg cube for a small amount of time as well.
If you're going to bash Voyager for weakening the Borg, then have some courtesy to admit that other shows made the hero ships equally 'too powerful' against them... such as TNG.

[JanewayRulz!]

Deks wrote:

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Sans the massacre of Wolf 359, the Enterprise-D managed to last in a firefight with a Borg cube for a small amount of time as well.
If you're going to bash Voyager for weakening the Borg, then have some courtesy to admit that other shows made the hero ships equally 'too powerful' against them... such as TNG.

"SLEEP."

What's idiotic is a imperialistic race that nearly wiped out an entire armada with one ship... a ship that was put to sleep by one recalcitant drone and they DIDN'T IMMEDIATELY SEND ANOTHER CUBE to finish the job with the sleep command disabled.

The BORG were so "frightened" of the almighty Federation that they actually sent their QUEEN years later to go up against that mighty "ship"... Picard/Data and slip into the PAST to assimilate Earth.

[Anwar]

Saito S wrote:

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Point out where I said "There are not, and have never been, any individuals who are or were 'haters'."

That's different from claiming the existence of an entire LEGION of angry, Voyager-hating lunatics who were out to hate the show simply for existing from day one. THAT'S what you've claimed is the case, many many times, and that's bollocks.

No, not really. They don't have their own webpage or Anti-VOY Legion meetings, but there are plenty folks who just never liked the show right from the start for a variety of reasons: Woman Captain, "Lost in Space" knock-off, etc.

Sure it was. Since "VOY wrecked the Borg" is not one of the outrageous claims I was referring to, it's irrelevant.

But it's still a common critique made by the Hatedom.

So it's essentially made up; i.e., it has no bearing on anything.

So I use a name from a game that's not contradicted by the shows, forgivable.

Yes, and those sites are speculating. There is no way to know for sure, which is the point I am trying to make.

They sure put more research and effort into their findings and conclusions than anyone saying the TC is bigger and stronger.

Meaningless. The Sovereign is smaller than the Galaxy, but is tactically superior.

It really isn't significantly smaller, just stretched longer. Not the best comparison.

Meaningless. I can't think of a single instance in Star Trek where a ship - fielded by ANY power/species - was referred to as a "strategic anything". In Star Trek, "tactical" = "tailored for combat." That's how the word is used, throughout Trekdom, consistently.

I'm using real life terminology, Tactical is short-term and immediate combat whereas Strategic is the long-term war-winning stuff.

Maybe that's because it has less of the equipment needed for assimilating large number of people than the standard cube

Which again, indicates it's more for the battles and engagements before proper assimilation (With the big Cubes) and thus less powerful than the bigger Cubes needed to take out planets.

Seven said it in a vacuum, comparing it to nothing. She chose that wording as a warning, to try and give Janeway pause before she implemented a plan to attack it.

And without true comparison to other Borg vessels, it could just mean "Heavily Armed compared to that Probe you fought a year ago."

It doesn't mean LITERALLY NO ONE on the planet. It just means that at the most, a statistically insignificant portion of the group in question (Trek fans, and mainly TrekBBS posters) say it.

They do a better job of showing they exist than anyone who likes VOY, that's for sure.

I wasn't referring to "a sense of unbeatable doom", therefore what Screed may have said about that is irrelevant. I was referring to your EXTREME (as extreme as you can get; it would end the show) assertion that "people" wanted to see the Borg taking out the ship in one shot and other such nonsense.

We see the Borg one-shot killing Fed ships in "Emissary" and FC, that's what they're talking about and wanted to see happen in VOY. Nevermind that the ENT-D, ENT-E and Defiant don't get one-shot killed.

I'll try asking the question again.

Why do you continue to take arguments that someone somewhere made once, years ago, and throw those arguments in the faces of other people - people who never made them - accusing them of taking positions they never took?

Because the common arguments of VOY haters all come from those same arguments, one way or another. They didn't say the exact same things, but their stances are similar enough to indicate common origin.