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Old February 13 2012, 04:36 PM   #841
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

Kytee wrote: View Post
wissaboo wrote: View Post
Dorian Thompson wrote: View Post
Wow. Rick shot them. Mr. Sensitive goes Alpha Male. No matter. Rick is scrumptious in any context. Zombies think so, too. In a court of law he'd be convicted of murder, but you sensed they were dangerous. Interesting territory here. Of course the alpha male j*****f Shane lovers and defenders at my other board will opine that this is tantamount to Shane offing Otis, but it's anything but.

I've tried to defend her, but Lori really is getting on my last nerve. I think it's the actress more than the writing. She doesn't elicit as much sympathy as a character in her situation should. It's not that I can't forgive the character for sleeping with someone other than her husband when she thought he was dead....it's just that she doesn't seem to do anything constructive at all. Not everyone has trained survival skills or firearm skills.....but she doesn't even cook or do laundry or even offer to help with anything at all. Pregnant or not, she could dig or help move bodies. Sit with Carol in the RV and try to comfort her. Anything. Why did she need to go after Rick?

That was Rene from True Blood that Rick killed, right?
I watched the bar fight again and the guy behind the bar had a gun aimed at Rick when he shot him. It was self defense.

I totally agree about Lori though. I don't like the actress and I suspect that is part of it. But I think the actresses playing her and Andrea should have been reversed. I really think in order to play Lori an actress needs to have a bit of softness, a bit of southern belle. I just don't buy the actress as the base of a love triangle.
I agree that the first kill in the bar was clean for sure, but I don't recall if the second guy was actually taking bead on Rick with his shotgun or not.

Speaking of the bar fight, where was Glens shotgun the whole time ? the two newcomers seemed way more confident in their position then they should of been by my math ( 2 vs 3 bodies, even if Hershel was drunk ; each side has a pistol and a shotgun ) yet they were acting like they had the upper hand.

Interesting observation about Lori, I hadn't really thought about it but she is more annoying then sympathetic. I liked her more in the comics for sure, even though her actions were a bit more grey.

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he shot into the air when he was shot so his finger was on the trigger.
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Old February 13 2012, 05:25 PM   #842
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

Disruptor wrote: View Post
I'm wondering about these wandering douche bags who got that far into the boonies but never found any place to hold up for long. Either they are lazy or incompetent or just stupid thugs.
I think these guys just take whatever they can from whoever they find, and then move on. Settling down isn't their thing.

They were so obvious about their intentions they should just hand out business cards that say "We are here to steal your stuff and rape your women."
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Old February 13 2012, 06:04 PM   #843
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

Dorian Thompson wrote: View Post
Wow. Rick shot them. Mr. Sensitive goes Alpha Male. No matter. Rick is scrumptious in any context. Zombies think so, too. In a court of law he'd be convicted of murder, but you sensed they were dangerous. Interesting territory here. Of course the alpha male j*****f Shane lovers and defenders at my other board will opine that this is tantamount to Shane offing Otis, but it's anything but.
He would be convicted of murder? That's quite a leap, especially considering the others were armed and pretty clearly "making a move" on him. One had just threatened to kill them all and rob them. With two corroborating witness I doubt he'd even be charged with murder much less convicted.

I think Rick's lawman sense kicked in early on those two, and was correct: Their intent was to get to the "pretty sweet" farm and pillage it, and probably worse things. Rick is definitely set up as a different kind of old-school cop; besides the throwback .357, waiting for the bad guys to go for their guns and then beating them in a quick-draw is pretty far removed from modern law enforcement tactics. Very Marshal Dillon, and another contrast with Shane.

I was one who thought the first part of the season was fine, and this episode was pretty good. I liked that it resumed immediately after the barn shooting, not to some later time as a breather after the intensity of that scene.



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Old February 13 2012, 06:30 PM   #844
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

Disruptor wrote: View Post
The fat guy went for his gun, but was as slow as he was gross and stupid.

Glen was totaly unprepared. Not a great moment for him.

I'm wondering about these wandering douche bags who got that far into the boonies but never found any place to hold up for long. Either they are lazy or incompetent or just stupid thugs.

That said, I didn't buy Rick's reasons for sticking around the farm. There's no place else!....There's no place they could clean up. No other farms with wells? Generators they could find/loot? Bullcrap.
During the showdown the head douche seemed to indicate that there were more than just the two of them. Could have been a bluff, but it would explain how these guys made it.
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Old February 13 2012, 06:43 PM   #845
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

I went back to the comments about the previous episode before watching this one, and I found a lot of parallels between what we were thinking / speculating back then and what the characters went through in the hours after they found Sophia. There was a lot of sadness for the girl, confusion as to how that happened, and a fair about of shock at the revelation (for those who hadn't been speculating as such for the two episodes prior).

Thing is, we've had a couple months to digest the events and wonder what will happen next. When we pick up here, it's JUST HAPPENED and at most only a few hours have past since Sophia. Most of the characters are in shock from the revelation and/or realization of the futility they'd been going through for the past days (or weeks/months in the case of Herschel and his brood). EVERYONE was handling it differently, and this episode went through that period of adjustment and introspection very well.

As for Rick, maybe for him it DID signify a change in character. He was desperate to appease Herschel and get him to let them stay so they could find Sophia; now he's on edge, and he very quickly kills the first two humans they've met since they got to the farm (even if they were telegraphing their intentions to begin with). Perhaps as Glenn suggested earlier, finding out about Sophia has lifted the big thundercloud of guilt over his head and he's moving onto his next thing, trying to keep Herschel around not for his ego but for Lori and the unborn kid.

Carl's short time here moves his character in the same direction as it goes in the comics. He's had precious little innocence since things began and here he shows how cold he's becoming to the world that was. If they ever get to their next couple destinations as outlined in the comics (and who knows - they may never, given how much this series has diverged from its source material) then Carl will have a lot to NOT worry about when they get there.

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Old February 13 2012, 06:54 PM   #846
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

I don't if anyone else has recently read volume 15 of the series, but I read it just before watching the new episode tonight. There are some interesting connections: Rick's feelings towards his "cold" son, or his new willingness to talk about "community", both seem to me to be reflected in the show.
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Old February 13 2012, 07:18 PM   #847
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

Temis admitted she would act like Shane if she were in the current situation.
That's still true. Also, I don't see why Carl's attitude is a symptom of coldness or even anything to particularly worry about. Maybe it's worrysome that he isn't showing more emotion vis a vis Sophia, but I see it simply as him being an unusually mature and matter of fact 12 year old who is taking his cues from his father. All he said is, "I'd have done what Dad did in that situation." Is that somehow horrific? I'd say that kid has a solid chance of making it to 13, good for him.

I've also realized what it is that's so fascinating about zombie stories, especially ones that focus on a small group roaming around and trying to survive. The human species has been around for what, 200,000 years? In almost all of that time, our ancestors lived in small groups, surviving as best they could while constantly surrounded by dangerous predators. Every so often, the predators would pick someone off or wipe out the whole tribe.

What this group is going through is nothing worse, really, than what humanity has evolved to endure, and has been our lifestyle for the vast majority of our existence. Okay, it's a bit more demoralizing to think that your friends or family might turn into a lion one day and try to eat you, but the kind of stress these people are facing is normal for our species, far more normal than the lives we lead nowadays.

If we didn't have a lot of Shanes and Carls in humanity's family tree, we wouldn't be alive today to be discussing these things. That kind of cold adaptation to survival is essential to the tribe's survival, and is probably built into our species at an instinctual level. We haven't had time to evolve beyond the people who spent every day of their miserable, short lives worrying about what was rustling in the bushes.


That said, I didn't buy Rick's reasons for sticking around the farm. There's no place else!....There's no place they could clean up. No other farms with wells? Generators they could find/loot? Bullcrap.
I agree, there must be any number of farms around Herschell's place. If the zombies haven't overrun his farm, then there must be others they haven't overrun, either. Just hit a sporting goods store for more crossbows just in case, and go find the least zombified farm.

Start branching out, but keep in touch with Herschell's people. When you run across other survivors, suss them out to make sure they aren't total morons and then induct them into the group - get them crossbows and they can clear out another farm. (If they are total morons, well, Rick showed us how to handle that situation.)

If you can take over adjacent farms, that's the best - you can create a larger defensible space with plans for withdrawing to some ultra-secure central area in case of zombie attack. It drives me a little nuts that nobody is willing to just sit down and talk about their strategy for survival going forward. Now that Herschell has finally gotten his head out of his ass, maybe some progress could be made on that front.

Stop expecting to be saved by going to Nebraska or whatever. They're in an area with good farmland, water, and reasonably clement weather - they aren't going to find a better location for survival. Trying to get away to someplace that's unzombified isn't going to work. Anyplace with a sparse population is also going to have rough terrain and bad weather. I wouldn't want to try to survive a Nebraska winter without an energy grid.

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Old February 13 2012, 07:25 PM   #848
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

Yeah, i didn't see it as overly cold; just an awknowledgement of what needed to be done, and not being overly SOFT, I guess. She was his friend, some part of him wants to be the one to take care of her. Kinda Old Yeller, 'he's my dog, i'll do it' sorta thing, no?

Anyway, mostly liked this episode. Aside from the dumb bit with Lori, felt like a decent way forward and less of a stall. Things were finally happening, even if they still are on the farm. Introducing dangerous humans instead of just a horde of zombies was nice, too. Reminder that just because the world's gone to shit, doesn't mean they are the only ones left. And that for all the talk of coldness and morals, most of the groups of survivors are going to be FAR worse than our group. Zombies aren't the only ones preying on the weak to survive...
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Old February 13 2012, 07:33 PM   #849
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

For all the various stupid character moments, I liked the episode because finally FINALLY Rick is waking up and becoming the sort of lead character the show needs.

And that moment was not when Rick channeled his inner Raylen Givens. It was a few minutes before when he was arguing with Herschel in the bar. When he realized that life goes on. Nothing has changed, death is still death, life is still life.

Making Rick a more sympathetic and pro-active character is going to do wonders towards improving the show.
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Old February 13 2012, 07:34 PM   #850
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

It could also be that the boy who plays Carl has a way of projecting calm maturity beyond his years. He seems more sensible than Lori, whose problem (as others have said) is probably that the actress exudes a certain unlikability. I noticed that on Prison Break, where she definitely was not supposed to be playing a character that is the least bit unlikable.

It was a few minutes before when he was arguing with Herschel in the bar. When he realized that life goes on. Nothing has changed, death is still death, life is still life.
I liked that. When you really think about their situation, it's not all that completely unusual for the human species, to be surrounded by hungry predators and constantly in fear for their lives. The civilization that they had, which kept such things at bay, is now gone, and they've been returned to humanity's natural state.

Even the risk of the whole human species becoming extinct is natural - species are becoming extinct all around us right now - so why shouldn't they be able to cope with their situation? Their ancestors did just that for hundreds of millions of years.
And that for all the talk of coldness and morals, most of the groups of survivors are going to be FAR worse than our group.
As long as the gang continues to struggle with morality, they're not beyond the pale. Shane yelling at Dale for instance - if he wasn't feeling guilty, he wouldn't bother to yell at the guy for making him feel even more guilty. My hunch is that most people wouldn't struggle with morality for very long, and that this group, even Shane, is being portrayed as unrealistically moralistic, just because that provides some nice dramatic tension.
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Old February 13 2012, 08:40 PM   #851
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

That scene in the bar was well done. The sense of menace was really palpable. Truly self-defense as well, the one went for the gun on the bar and fatso never had put his gun away only turned it aside.
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Old February 13 2012, 09:05 PM   #852
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

At first I thought, "Cool! New character interaction with the rest of the group!" But when Dave started talking about "the things we've had to do", I caught on. The way it went down didn't surprise me a bit after that.

These guys have already been where Shane is going.
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Old February 13 2012, 09:07 PM   #853
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

You're assuming they had a sense of decency to lose. We don't know anything about their past, maybe they didn't have far to fall.
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Old February 13 2012, 09:07 PM   #854
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
At first I thought, "Cool! New character interaction with the rest of the group!" But when Dave started talking about "the things we've had to do", I caught on. The way it went down didn't surprise me a bit after that.

These guys have already been where Shane is going.
Let's face it, Rick probably isn't far behind by this point either.
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Old February 13 2012, 09:20 PM   #855
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
You're assuming they had a sense of decency to lose. We don't know anything about their past, maybe they didn't have far to fall.
I didn't mean they regressed down the same path as Shane. True, they may have been like that already-- but he's on his way. When it started going bad, I realized, "These guys are Shane in a season or two!" Rick should take a warning from that.

As for Rick, well, anything can happen, but they haven't shown him so overtly going the same road.
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