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Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old February 9 2012, 03:21 PM   #61
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: The highlights of Nemesis

The Overlord wrote: View Post
Vasquez Rocks wrote: View Post
The sense I got from the movie and Shinzon (and this is just my feeling), is that he was planning on enslaving the Romulans after he used them to help him defeat Earth. So eventually the Remans would be the ultimate power on the planet(s) and in command, while the Romulans would be working for them. Poetic justice. Why kill them when he can make them slaves and make them feel what he felt.
Why not do that from the start and forget about destroying the Federation? There also no evidence he was planning that, so this just kinda guess work. That would have been nice to show, because him acting in Romulan Empire's interests didn't make sense.

Anyway you slice it, his motives for destroying the Federation were extremely vague and convoluted. He had motives for hating the Romulans, he even had motives for wanting Picard, but destroying the Federation, that made no sense.
Shinzon was insane. Raised in a mine, subjected to constant abuse and taught to hate what he is. If you've had any experience with mentally ill people, you'll find their motivations don't always stand up to scrutiny.

IMO Shinzon wanting to wipe out Picard and humanity because they lived such privalaged lives while he suffered endlessly, and because he's a copy of a great man and would never fit in there, was believable. It didn't make rational sense, but it wasn't meant to.
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Old February 9 2012, 05:02 PM   #62
The Overlord
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Re: The highlights of Nemesis

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post
Vasquez Rocks wrote: View Post
The sense I got from the movie and Shinzon (and this is just my feeling), is that he was planning on enslaving the Romulans after he used them to help him defeat Earth. So eventually the Remans would be the ultimate power on the planet(s) and in command, while the Romulans would be working for them. Poetic justice. Why kill them when he can make them slaves and make them feel what he felt.
Why not do that from the start and forget about destroying the Federation? There also no evidence he was planning that, so this just kinda guess work. That would have been nice to show, because him acting in Romulan Empire's interests didn't make sense.

Anyway you slice it, his motives for destroying the Federation were extremely vague and convoluted. He had motives for hating the Romulans, he even had motives for wanting Picard, but destroying the Federation, that made no sense.
Shinzon was insane. Raised in a mine, subjected to constant abuse and taught to hate what he is. If you've had any experience with mentally ill people, you'll find their motivations don't always stand up to scrutiny.
That's pretty weak in terms of motives, saying "he's insane" and not exploring it further. Madness has a method to it, even insane people fall into patterns. It makes him seem like a cartoon villain, he might as well been blowing up planets for fun.

Compare that to Khan, who has unstable, but there was a reasoning behind why he hated Kirk, Shinzon's hatred seems completely random.

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
IMO Shinzon wanting to wipe out Picard and humanity because they lived such privalaged lives while he suffered endlessly, and because he's a copy of a great man and would never fit in there, was believable. It didn't make rational sense, but it wasn't meant to.
Shinzon's Romulan overlords were living a privileged life off of his labor, why he doesn't he try kill them instead. If one nation enslaves another, they will hate the nation enslaving them, not some other nation that has nothing to do with it. I think this movie would worked better if Shinzon was trying to destroy the Romulans and the Enterprise had to stop him.

Heck I don't understand why the Remans would go along with Shinzon's plan or make him the leader, they have no beef with the federation and would upset if the romulans who tormented them were allowed to live, while Shinzon went off to kill some civilization who had nothing to do with their slavery. It doesn't make sense that the Remens would support Shinzon in this, they don't get anything out of it.

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post
Shinzon has every reason to hate the Romulans, much more so then Picard, so why would he do that in the first place?
To prove his superiority over his gaolers.

Picard is a 24th century Starfleeter. He doesn't hate anyone, although the Borg have severely tested his stoicism.

The Overlord wrote: View Post
Why wouldn't he try to kill them all instead?
Shinzon killed the whole Senate. The Romulan people were more like slaves of the state, like him. And the Remans.
And the average Federation citizen had nothing to do with his enslavement, if he's supposed to be insane, he wouldn't bother leaving Romulan civilians alone, he would want to kill them to.

He let the Romulan military live, despite the fact that the military would enforce his enslave, it was military troops that would act as his overseers. So allow them to live, doesn't make much sense.

Anyway you slice it, Shinzon's motives are overly convoluted.
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Old February 9 2012, 05:23 PM   #63
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Re: The highlights of Nemesis

Along with the previous stuff folks said that liked I also liked the Romulan chick.
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Old February 9 2012, 06:03 PM   #64
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Re: The highlights of Nemesis

The Castellan wrote: View Post
Along with the previous stuff folks said that liked I also liked the Romulan chick.
Hard not to like Dina Meyer.
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Old February 10 2012, 09:03 PM   #65
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Re: The highlights of Nemesis

If I had to pick one good thing about the film, it would be the space battle. The space battle was cool. Characterisation aside, the film's action was spot on, and I enjoyed seeing it.
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Old February 13 2012, 12:52 AM   #66
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Re: The highlights of Nemesis

CaptainMatt wrote: View Post
If I had to pick one good thing about the film, it would be the space battle. The space battle was cool. Characterisation aside, the film's action was spot on, and I enjoyed seeing it.
I know I'm going to sound like I'm just deliberately trying to dislike things about Nemesis, but I'm really not. In fact, I desperately try to find things to like about any Trek production.

However, I never cared for the space battle in that film. Yeah, the special effects were good. But it felt completely "off" to me, in that it didn't seem like a Trek battle. Something doesn't feel right.

I think it may be the sound effects more than anything else that pull me out of it. Nothing sounds the way it has been established to sound. We'd seen the Enterprise-E engaged in battle multiple times by that point, and we'd seen huge fleet battles in DS9 with all sorts of classes of ships involved. Starfleet weapons look a certain way, act a certain way, and sound a certain way.

It would be as if Lucas released a new Star Wars film and suddenly the blasters had the Trek phaser sound effects.

Just really didn't feel right to me.
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Old February 13 2012, 04:19 AM   #67
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Re: The highlights of Nemesis

CaptainMatt wrote: View Post
If I had to pick one good thing about the film, it would be the space battle. The space battle was cool. Characterisation aside, the film's action was spot on, and I enjoyed seeing it.
Yeah, I'm no great fan of Nemesis, but I do think the final space battle was well-executed (if a bit too reminiscent of the Enterprise vs cloaked Bird of Prey battle in TUC).
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Old February 13 2012, 04:40 PM   #68
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Re: The highlights of Nemesis

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post
Vasquez Rocks wrote: View Post
The sense I got from the movie and Shinzon (and this is just my feeling), is that he was planning on enslaving the Romulans after he used them to help him defeat Earth. So eventually the Remans would be the ultimate power on the planet(s) and in command, while the Romulans would be working for them. Poetic justice. Why kill them when he can make them slaves and make them feel what he felt.
Why not do that from the start and forget about destroying the Federation? There also no evidence he was planning that, so this just kinda guess work. That would have been nice to show, because him acting in Romulan Empire's interests didn't make sense.

Anyway you slice it, his motives for destroying the Federation were extremely vague and convoluted. He had motives for hating the Romulans, he even had motives for wanting Picard, but destroying the Federation, that made no sense.
Shinzon was insane. Raised in a mine, subjected to constant abuse and taught to hate what he is. If you've had any experience with mentally ill people, you'll find their motivations don't always stand up to scrutiny.

IMO Shinzon wanting to wipe out Picard and humanity because they lived such privalaged lives while he suffered endlessly, and because he's a copy of a great man and would never fit in there, was believable. It didn't make rational sense, but it wasn't meant to.

I don't think he was supposed to be insane. If he was, it kind of ruins the whole "dark mirror" angle of the character, as if he's genuinely crazy, his motives and actions aren't going to be rational or worth much analysis.
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Old February 13 2012, 05:45 PM   #69
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Re: The highlights of Nemesis

The very fact that he spends so much time and effort obsessing about how Picard sees him is for me the selling point on the theory that he goes after Earth in order to impress. More specifically, he does it in order to impress Picard.

He may be a downtrodden slave and a victimized prisoner, but above all that, he is Picard, or almost so. Being a slave is just an excuse and ultimately a means; he's also a highly empowered soldier, and later a powerful rebellion leader. His life ain't so bad, not in Reman terms at least. But he's still only almost Picard. If Romulans did anything wrong, it was stopping him from being Picard. Jailing and forced labor was just how they did it.

That part of the character works very well IMHO. It's no wonder he's all cardboard, when he was meant to be something and then allowed to be nothing. He has a single, extremely well founded goal in life, and he gradually works up to having the means to do something about it.

And that's where the movie really fails IMHO. Going after Earth is a nice trick, just like sucking the life out of Picard is. He could do both without needing any reason other than "this is how I get Picard; this is how I get to be Picard". But his plotting should culminate in that. At one point or another, he should attempt to usurp Picard's powers and position, not just his blood.

As the movie goes, we don't really learn whether Shinzon cared about Earth one way or another. The entire attack could have been pretense, a ruse to force Picard to do... something, just like planting of B-4 and assassinating the Senate forced him to act in a certain way. But the movie is lacking in this respect: Shinzon's ultimate goal is never revealed.

I've ridden my hobby-horse around here before, but it's whinnying for another go, so... Replacing Data with B-4 is a fun if somewhat silly trick. The movie would conclude with much greater splendor if that one were mirrored by another: Shinzon finally getting what he wants, replacing Picard, becoming Picard. Had he been allowed to age from his Tom Hardy self to his Patrick Steward self, there could have been a heroic last struggle where it is left unclear which of the two Picards survives - all we know is that the survivor was the one who did the right thing in the end. Except that we're also shown that the one who didn't survive did the right thing, too, and heroically sacrificed himself...

Now there's a good send-off for the good old cast. When two heroes both survive and perish, how can it fail to be twice as good as ST2:TWoK?

Timo Saloniemi
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Old February 13 2012, 06:39 PM   #70
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Re: The highlights of Nemesis

Jim from Neighbours as the Praetor.
The Senates execution.
The space battle.
Commander Donatra (though they could have done so much more with her).
The Valdore.

It's been a while since I last saw it, and everytime I think of Nemesis I always go to everything thats wrong with it, so this is a list of everything that still sticks oiut for me as a good thing.
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Old February 13 2012, 09:07 PM   #71
TenLubak
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Re: The highlights of Nemesis

I like the litte meeting between Picard (old and Picard young) he wants to know about his bloodline, were we this were we that. but in the end the yound picard decides that he doesn't care, and was just putting around before putting his plan into action. I thought it was well acted and I felt a interested in this part where as most of the movie the dialouge was blah! In fact this movie was not as good as the other Star Trek's. I also liked the part where the whole bridge blows up and Picard calls for medical teams in his God echo voice. Like....maybe they should go to the other emergency au control bridge before that screen dies and they all get sucked off into space- correction sir, thats blown out. I suppose the medics are there to do what help the ppl that didnt blow out. I see that, but there would have needed them before it blew up too. I was also surpised that you couldnt see the front of the spaceship from the blow up bridge with a hole in. Odd, yeah i didn't like much about this movie, I tried to like it really hard. But not very good really. My sisters boyfreind stold it for crack money and havent replaced it yet, so thats not saying much either.

I like the opening sequence, and the coolest camera work was the memory where the bad young Picard Shinzon is thinking of the mines with that elevator mine shot. And the opening titles were a nice change, and the music was good!

I like that about NEMESIS.
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Old February 14 2012, 12:31 AM   #72
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Re: The highlights of Nemesis

TenLubak wrote: View Post
I like the litte meeting between Picard (old and Picard young) he wants to know about his bloodline, were we this were we that. but in the end the yound picard decides that he doesn't care, and was just putting around before putting his plan into action. I thought it was well acted and I felt a interested in this part where as most of the movie the dialouge was blah! In fact this movie was not as good as the other Star Trek's. I also liked the part where the whole bridge blows up and Picard calls for medical teams in his God echo voice. Like....maybe they should go to the other emergency au control bridge before that screen dies and they all get sucked off into space- correction sir, thats blown out. I suppose the medics are there to do what help the ppl that didnt blow out. I see that, but there would have needed them before it blew up too. I was also surpised that you couldnt see the front of the spaceship from the blow up bridge with a hole in. Odd, yeah i didn't like much about this movie, I tried to like it really hard. But not very good really. My sisters boyfreind stold it for crack money and havent replaced it yet, so thats not saying much either.

I like the opening sequence, and the coolest camera work was the memory where the bad young Picard Shinzon is thinking of the mines with that elevator mine shot. And the opening titles were a nice change, and the music was good!

I like that about NEMESIS.
Stuart Baird sucks as a director,..I would even go so far he sucks as an Editor,...Both of which made this film suffer the way it did. Was it a BAD movie altogether??? No, it wasn't but just NOT up to being Star Trek.
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Old February 15 2012, 06:20 AM   #73
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Re: The highlights of Nemesis

Timo wrote: View Post
The very fact that he spends so much time and effort obsessing about how Picard sees him is for me the selling point on the theory that he goes after Earth in order to impress. More specifically, he does it in order to impress Picard.
Don't quite agree. I thought Shinzon went after Earth because he finally bowed to the pressure of his Romulan allies-of-convenience, who wanted him to do this the whole time. I don't believe he had any interest at all in attacking Earth, much less using that action to prove something to Picard. By that point in the movie, I think both men realized they were not the same as the other.
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Old February 15 2012, 11:35 AM   #74
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Re: The highlights of Nemesis

When did we see a Romulan who wanted Earth attacked, much less destroyed? All of Shinzon's allies appeared to be solidly against the idea.

What they wanted Shinzon to do was to proceed with "an attack on the Federation", with "defeating the Federation", apparently by rallying a joint army such as envisioned by the Romulan conspirators speaking to the Senate in the teaser. Shinzon's enraged sally from Romulan orbit towards Earth does not appear to be part of any plan agreed on with the conspirators.

Fairly shortsighted on them, considering they had either placed a weapon dedicated to planeticide on the hands of their champion, or at least observed its existence.

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Old February 15 2012, 06:21 PM   #75
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Re: The highlights of Nemesis

Timo wrote: View Post
What they wanted Shinzon to do was to proceed with "an attack on the Federation", with "defeating the Federation", apparently by rallying a joint army such as envisioned by the Romulan conspirators speaking to the Senate in the teaser. Shinzon's enraged sally from Romulan orbit towards Earth does not appear to be part of any plan agreed on with the conspirators.
And since when in Star Trek history, when the bad guy says he wants to attack "the Federation," it doesn't automatically equate attacking Earth, the "center" of the Federation?

Really, there's no good reason why Shinzon decides to go for Earth other than that it was a) bad writing, or b) Earth=Federation.
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