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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old February 13 2012, 07:51 PM   #151
Captain Tracy
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

SISKO - LOL!!! You just can't bring yourself to write the words: 'I Phaser Eleen (and her unborn infant) and the Doctor and I escape.

You imply the act, but you just CAN'T bring yourself to actually type the words. LOL!! - I think a psychologist would have a Field Day examining that! ROFLMAO!

Okay buddy, you can stop your squirming now LOL!

Eleen MUST DIE.

Here is the rational, as I see it anyway:

1. The entire KEY to the thing is THE UNBORN HEIR-APPARENT TEER.

It is ONLY through the birth and survival of this child which grants Eleen power over Maab, as she becomes the acting Teer until such time as her child can rule on his own (of course Maab and his henchmen COULD pull yet another coup,..)

And it is only through Eleen acting in power that You are going to be granted the mineral rights, which allows you to complete your mission - being the sole purpose of your mission.

2. HOWEVER, since Eleen is trapped in the cave entrance, even if you should elect NOT TO KILL HER (and her unborn), She would remain 'Stuck', and If she would live long enough, the baby would be born into a cave filled with deadly gas,.. and the new Teer dies instantly.

3. If Eleen does not give birth, but Maab and the Klingon find her, they will complete the task they set out to do, and most likely be-head her,... and still the unborn child dies.

Of course MANY THINGS COULD HAPPEN AFTER THE FACT, but the only real is answer is to escape the cave by killing Eleen and the child, and attempt to evade Maab and the Klingon long enough for the Enterprise to return and escape - as the mission to acquire the mineral rights is more than likely doomed the moment the unborn child dies.

But SISKO, how is a guy who can't even type the words: 'I PHASER THE TRAPPED PREGNANT WOMAN', going to actually pull the trigger in real life? LOL!!!!

Okay buddy,.. your turn to put me in the 'Hot Seat'.
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Old February 13 2012, 10:44 PM   #152
Merry Christmas
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Captain Tracy wrote: View Post
2. HOWEVER, since Eleen is trapped in the cave entrance, even if you should elect NOT TO KILL HER (and her unborn), She would remain 'Stuck', and If she would live long enough, the baby would be born into a cave filled with deadly gas,.. and the new Teer dies instantly.
But would she in fact remain "stuck?" From your scenario it doesn't sound like Eileen is being actively crushed by the cave-in, only that she is pinned. Since phasering her, and not the surrounding rock, will create the opening large enough for the egress of Kirk and McCoy, you are saying that only her mid-section is actually pinned. You stipulated that her head is clear, she can breath outside air, and if she were buried down to her ankles, the the two officers wouldn't be able to escape through that size opening subsequent to the (let's use the word) murder.

So only her waist area is pinned, and she is near term in her pregnancy, so is Eileen doomed to die without assistance? No, and this is why. When Eileen's water breaks, she will lose a quart of physical volume, plus she would become "slippery." Next the future Teer would be repositioned by Eileen's muscles prior to his birth, he would "drop." Head down and feet up, moved close to the birth canal. This too would decrease the size of Eileen's waist area.

If (there's that word) the rocks holding Eileen in place are fixed in position, and not actively crushing her, then a good hour before birth she would be able to wiggle free and leave the vicinity of the cave opening. Her freeing herself would also release the poison gas into the air, but it would then immediately be mixed with outside air, and as long as Eileen didn't linger, she would be fine from the poison.

McCoy would have realized just what I told you in a heartbeat, and would have prevented Kirk from phasering Eileen

When you thought up this scenario Captain Tracy, you obviously were not thinking like a woman.

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Old February 13 2012, 11:22 PM   #153
Captain Tracy
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Captain Tracy wrote: View Post
2. HOWEVER, since Eleen is trapped in the cave entrance, even if you should elect NOT TO KILL HER (and her unborn), She would remain 'Stuck', and If she would live long enough, the baby would be born into a cave filled with deadly gas,.. and the new Teer dies instantly.
But would she in fact remain "stuck?" From your scenario it doesn't sound like Eileen is being actively crushed by the cave-in, only that she is pinned. Since phasering her, and not the surrounding rock, will create the opening large enough for the egress of Kirk and McCoy, you are saying that only her mid-section is actually pinned. You stipulated that her head is clear, she can breath outside air, and if she were buried down to her ankles, the the two officers wouldn't be able to escape through that size opening subsequent to the (let's use the word) murder.

So only her waist area is pinned, and she is near term in her pregnancy, so is Eileen doomed to die without assistance? No, and this is why. When Eileen's water breaks, she will lose a quart of physical volume, plus she would become "slippery." Next the future Teer would be repositioned by Eileen's muscles prior to his birth, he would "drop." Head down and feet up, moved close to the birth canal. This too would decrease the size of Eileen's waist area.

If (there's that word) the rocks holding Eileen in place are fixed in position, and not actively crushing her, then a good hour before birth she would be able to wiggle free and leave the vicinity of the cave opening. Her freeing herself would also release the poison gas into the air, but it would then immediately be mixed with outside air, and as long as Eileen didn't linger, she would be fine from the poison.

McCoy would have realized just what I told you in a heartbeat, and would have prevented Kirk from phasering Eileen

When you thought up this scenario Captain Tracy, you obviously were not thinking like a woman.

LOL!!!!!!! Well, I must say, I haven't laughed that hard in quite sometime, thank you T'Girl - you could have been on OJ Simpson's legal 'Dream Team'.

Stuck is Stuck - for purposes of the hypothesis.

However, let us say it is not the rubble which actually entraps Eleen, and prevents any WIGGLING, but as another effect of the cave-in, the structurally sound rocks have SHIFTED POSITION, and of course, this is what actually pins Eleen in place,....

Pinned just under her rather large, full, and hypnotically pendulous swaying breasts, and just above her rather pregnant belly. - Yep, thinking like a 'Guy' - guilty as charged LOL!

Therefore, it matters not if she gives birth to quintuplets,... she remains STUCK, and the cave exit remains BLOCKED.

Eleen is STUCK.

HOWEVER,... IF (yes, there is that word,.. again! LOL!) YOU should like to test out your 'Solution' to the situation,... may I suggest you place an ad on Match.com; and with the aid of the first available suitor - perhaps SISKO might help you out - , and re-create Eleen's impregnation, and wedge yourself in the mouth of a cave (or resonable facsimile there-of), wait through the gestation period of 9 months,.. and test it out,...

Just like on MYTHBUSTERS!!!! LOL!!!!

Stuck is STUCK.

I have to say thank you for making me smile today, you put a lot of thought into your 'retort', and a HUGE smile on my face, thanks!

'still laughing over here'
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Last edited by Captain Tracy; February 13 2012 at 11:50 PM.
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Old February 16 2012, 06:46 PM   #154
siskokid888
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

^^^ Well, Ron, I would hope it would NEVER be easy to admit to deciding to kill a woman and her unborn child! But you backed up my argument quite nicely. Give me a little time to come up with one for you - I have one in mind - I just need to work out the details.
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Old February 16 2012, 10:17 PM   #155
Captain Tracy
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

SISKO - Alright then, I am 'waiting in the chair' Doctor. LOL!

Take your time in working up a dilemma for me. I must admit, I do have an unfair advantage in this regard, as I spend a goodly portion of my day concocting and devising scenarios with which to confound you LOL!!

Some people have their cross-word puzzles, and some have their pet-inventions to occupy their minds with. Me? I have my latest favorite hobby, 'How to make my buddy SISKO twist and squirm'. LOL!!

Okay Pal, 'Standing-By', you may Fire When Ready.
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Old February 21 2012, 03:45 PM   #156
siskokid888
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Ok Ron, here we go - for this scenario, I'm going to go slightly outside the realm of episodic TOS, but you should still be familiar with all the elements -

You are President of the United Federation of Planets. (way to go, Ron!). Starfleet Intelligence comes to you with the following information - the chancellor of the Klingon Empire has died (or been killed) and there are 2 candidates vying to replace him. One of the candidates is named Gorkon. He is not from the warrior caste, but he has an impressive combat record and is well respected in the Empire. He has made overtures to the Federation in regards to making a lasting peace - he doesn't believe the Empire can go on in its war-like state. There is a real opportunity with him in power to end the hostilities between the Klingons and the Federation.

The other candidate is K'reel. He is of the warrior caste, and has violently risen through the ranks. He also comes from a well respected and connected family. He has a 15 year old son. K'reel believes that the Klingon Empire has been humilitated, and he wants to go to war with the Federation to regain Klingon honor. He has vowed to fight to the last man, woman and child if necessary to regain that honor. If he becomes chancellor, he, and/or his son, if anything should happen to K'reel, will go to war in a matter of weeks - and it will be devestaing to the Alpha Quadrant. The Klingon high council, in addition with many of the Klingon people, support K'reel.

Starfleet Intelligence has a plan - they have worked out a way to get an operative close to K'reel and kill him AND his 15 year old son. The son has to die in order to end K'reel's family's claim on the chancellorship. They have worked it out so that K'reel and his son's death will looked to have been accomplished by Gorkon and/ or his supporters, and since this is a norm in Klingon politics, it will not cause major repercussions.

Here is your question, Mr. President - do you ok the operation to murder K'reel and his son, forswearing yourself by interfering in another culture solely to protect Federation interests? True, billions may be saved, but you would be undermining and going against everything the Federation stands for, and everything that you and your office supposedly represent. Or do you let things play out, have K'reel become chancellor, and face a devestating war? Don't forget, there is always a small chance that the plot will be found out, and you will be at war with the Klingons in any case.

Your decision, Mr. President, Starfleet Intelligence only has a short window to accomplish the plan if you decide to ok it.

Have at it!
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Old February 22 2012, 03:12 AM   #157
Merry Christmas
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

It might be relevant to the dicussion to note that by the example of Worf's son Alexander (and the writings of John Ford), 15 year old Klingons are full adults.

")
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Old January 13 2013, 09:45 PM   #158
Captain Tracy
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

SISKO!!!!!

Sorry for the long absence, I have been "heavily occupied" on an Amusement and Pleasure Planet located in the Omicron Delta system for quite some time.

However, I recently was kicked-out, or more properly "not invited back"; this, after being discovered as the singular guest who was wearing out their stock of fembots at an alarming rate,.. and was also discovered to be the mysterious guest who was gaining access to the Japanese fighter plane, and making repeated strafing-runs on the "White Rabbit'.

Okay,... first off,.. amazing scenario you cooked up,.. top shelf!

The short answer is simply NO; I could take no part whatsoever in any type of a coup,.. totally against my personal morals and ethics, and what the whole spirit is the UFP is "SUPPOSED" to be about.

Your MOST EXCELLENT scenario hits on the same basic dilemma which STAR TREK FAILED to examine properly in THE ENTERPRISE INCIDENT,... As told, it was a rah-rah-sis-boom-bah,., our ends justify our means, and therefore can be as unethical as our competitors (read: enemy governments) because our nationalist pride says we are the "good guys",... and god guys are allowed to be as slimy as the bad guys, because we are "right".

Love that episode as an adventure, hate the cultural indoctrination message it carries.

So,.. I could not be a party to the scheme - with full understanding of the potential fall-out - and still wear the uniform with my head held high.

If given the option, I would apply whatever influence I could to aid Gorkon in "Selling" his position to the Empire, while trying to get K'reel to "come about", as it were (which I realize is not very likely).

So if it comes down to intergalatic war in either case, perhaps THAT would be the time for the UFP to reconsider their own position, and let the Empire runs its own government, and simply butt-out, keep the Klingons on their side of the zone established by the Organians,.. and on the the CORRECT SIDE of a Phaser (being the emitter-nozzel end),... harsh? perhaps, but that's how I like my TREK.

Good to see you and thanks for the question,... SISKO!!!!!!!!!!! LOL!!!
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Old January 14 2013, 12:56 AM   #159
1001001
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Resurrecting a thread that's nearly a year old is bad form. If there's something new to discuss, you can create a new thread.

Closing time.
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