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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old February 12 2012, 02:10 AM   #931
Emher
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

If so, see the Director's Cut if possible. Superior cut of the film, it's almost like an entirely different film. And Siddig has more screentime in it.
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Old February 12 2012, 02:34 AM   #932
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Oh, not to worry, I bought the Director's Cut on DVD as soon as it came out. Fantastic film.
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Old February 12 2012, 03:06 AM   #933
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

apenpaap--I'm not convinced Dukat isn't evil and self-deluded enough to do what he did in that book. I just have an objection to ruining Iliana Ghemor's character.
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Old February 12 2012, 08:04 AM   #934
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Damnit, I forgot the µ symbol.
I thought we had all agreed not to use this "µ" stuff anymore. My Midwestern American sensibilities, remember?

But what I really love about this episode is how an episode about an attempt on Garak's life could have turned out rather pedestrian, but that didn't happen. It could have been a simple case of the Obsidian Order attempting to kill Garak for whatever crime he commited in order to be exiled, or it could have been about a hate crime commited by a Bajoran terrorist. But no, these characters demand a better story than that, so we get numerous twists that build up to a final revelation of galactic significance.
Agreed. That is something that DS9 often does and does well - taking something that at first appearance will be rather mundane and turning it into something big and important (The Jem'Hadar being another example).

Take the scene where Odo meets his Cardassian informant, on paper it could have been a boring expository scene designed to move the plot along in the old Star Trek cave set, but the way it's framed, the use of lighting, the ominous music, all these things add up to create a truly memorable scene. It doesn't matter that the Cardassian informant is little more than a plot device because it's written and directed so well.
Agreed again. I've absolutely loved that scene since I first saw it during DS9's original run here in the U.S. In some senses, it reminds me of the end of The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. That movie's climax is literally just three guys staring at each for five straight minutes while not saying a single word, and it's literally one of the most amazing things I've ever seen in my life.



How the hell did Sergio Leone manage that?! Framing, lighting and music, that's how. Avery Brooks had obviously learned from a master when sat in the director's chair this time.
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Old February 12 2012, 04:37 PM   #935
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
It's a shame we never got the informant's name. There's a Cardassian informant of Odo's mentioned in season seven's Treachery, Faith and the Great River; Russol. It might be speculated that this is Russol.
I always took it that Russol was supposed to be the same informant because the circumstances of their meeting were so similar; Odo goes alone in a runabout to the Star Trek cave set. It's a pity we never got learn more about him, he made quite an impression in this episode.

DonIago wrote: View Post
The Mila-Garak dialog did make enough of an impression on me that I was very much hoping she would show up again in the series, so you can imagine how thrilled I was to see her reappear in S7.
What surprises me is that when she showed up again four years later I knew who she was instantly. When Lt Carey showed up in one of the final episodes of Voyager I had completely forgotten who he was, it wasn't until years later that I realised he wasn't a random goldshirt. But I still remembered Mila even though she had only been in one scene, so she definitely made an impression.

Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
I thought we had all agreed not to use this "µ" stuff anymore. My Midwestern American sensibilities, remember?
Midwestern Americans and the Greeks are practically the same.
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Old February 12 2012, 06:36 PM   #936
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
It's a shame we never got the informant's name. There's a Cardassian informant of Odo's mentioned in season seven's Treachery, Faith and the Great River; Russol. It might be speculated that this is Russol.
I always took it that Russol was supposed to be the same informant because the circumstances of their meeting were so similar; Odo goes alone in a runabout to the Star Trek cave set. It's a pity we never got learn more about him, he made quite an impression in this episode.
I agree with TheGodBen; I always assumed that the informant was suspected to be Russol. It's funny, though, I thought I had read somewhere that that was the producers' intention as well, but I just read through the entry in the Companion, and looked on Memory Alpha, and all I can find is MA's speculation... oh well.
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Old February 12 2012, 07:18 PM   #937
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
What surprises me is that when she showed up again four years later I knew who she was instantly. When Lt Carey showed up in one of the final episodes of Voyager I had completely forgotten who he was, it wasn't until years later that I realised he wasn't a random goldshirt. But I still remembered Mila even though she had only been in one scene, so she definitely made an impression.
Not to go off-topic, but I knew exactly who Carey was when he showed up, and given the events of the episode I think I might have preferred it to have been a random character.

Hell, that even undermined "Endgame" to some extent.
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Old February 12 2012, 07:52 PM   #938
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Ln X wrote: View Post
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Improbable Cause (*****)
Nothing more needs to be said, this and The Die is Cast are five stars because they so profoundly change DS9, and throw in some amazing characterization and dialogue.
Improbable Cause is my favorite episode of Star Trek, hands down. Everything about it, from the Shakespearean overtones to the unraveling mystery to Odo and Garak's interactions to the interplay on the Warbird, is top-notch. I especially love the framing of the final scene, where Garak and Tain clasp hands with Odo in the background, flanked by the Romulan Star Empire banner.
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Old February 12 2012, 08:41 PM   #939
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I remember feeling so glad when they followed up with Garak's history. The writers could have just as easily let "The Wire" be a "brain drugs are bad for you episode" and write more about how Jadzia REALLY is her own person really! But they got smart utilized the extraordinary acting skills of Robinson and Auberjoinois to write great stories that would give us some great shows!
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Old February 12 2012, 08:58 PM   #940
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

DonIago wrote: View Post
TheGodBen wrote: View Post
What surprises me is that when she showed up again four years later I knew who she was instantly. When Lt Carey showed up in one of the final episodes of Voyager I had completely forgotten who he was, it wasn't until years later that I realised he wasn't a random goldshirt. But I still remembered Mila even though she had only been in one scene, so she definitely made an impression.
Not to go off-topic, but I knew exactly who Carey was when he showed up, and given the events of the episode I think I might have preferred it to have been a random character.

Hell, that even undermined "Endgame" to some extent.
With regards to Carey (in "Friendship One") I might have cared had he not been absent for so many episode. The role could have been a generic character and it would have made no difference to the episode. Yet only a couple of episodes later Janeway is travelling back in time to prevent the death of only 16(?) more crew she could have gone back a couple of weeks earlier and saved one more.
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Old February 13 2012, 12:13 AM   #941
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
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Or possibly; the Dal'Rok predated the Occupation and the Sirah just kept it up out of tradition?
Well, if that's true, then the village would have had to be completely spared the ravages of the Occupation. I find that unlikely.

I also find it very odd that the Occupation is never once referred to in the episode.
Actually, it is mentioned that the Cardassians diverted the river that used to be the border between the Paqu and the Navot.
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Old February 13 2012, 12:17 AM   #942
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

^wasn't the village in "The Storyteller" re: the Dal'rok a different village?
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Old February 13 2012, 07:14 AM   #943
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Midwestern Americans and the Greeks are practically the same.
I often drive past a Greek Orthodox Church, but I don't think that makes me a Greek.

USS Fardell wrote: View Post
Actually, it is mentioned that the Cardassians diverted the river that used to be the border between the Paqu and the Navot.
You're right. I should have said that it's never mentioned in the A story with the village.
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Old February 13 2012, 11:02 AM   #944
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Yeah, I had a BIG problem with the Iliana Ghemor storyline when I heard about it. Way to completely destroy every last bit of the impact of "Second Skin" and "Ties of Blood and Water," people.
Have you read David Mack's "Rise like lions"?
It also features prominently enough cardassian civilisation. Also MU.
It turns out cardassians are way WAY susceptible to telepathic mind-reading and control.

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Old February 13 2012, 06:48 PM   #945
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

The Die is Cast (****½)

The second part of this story sacrifices the intrigue from the first part and replaces it with some visceral scenes and high-stakes action. It's almost as good as the first part, but some of the scenes on the Defiant in the middle of the episode feel like they're stalling for time and distract from the more engaging story taking place on the Warbird. After being warned several times this season that Garak is not to be trusted, and one of those warning came from Garak himself, here's the pay-off; he rejoins the Obsidian Order and tortures Odo. I'm trying not to sound sadistic by saying this, but the torture scene was fantastic. Here's a guy that's undergoing a process that we humans could never understand but the acting by Auberjonois and Robinson, and the wonderfully disturbing make-up, make it completely convincing. In a sense, both men are being tortured in that scene and both have a desire to return home, which leads to a twisted sense of camaraderie developing between them.

Then there's the main plot. Up until now there has been little feeling of the Dominion threat, and when the characters discuss it it seems like it's a little overblown. They blew up a Galaxy class ship by ramming it, but other than that we haven't seen them do much. Revealing the Changelings as the Founders made them more interesting, but the Dominion as a whole came across a little like generic thugs, they're certainly not as threatening as the Borg. This episode changed that. The scale of their plot is immense, they not only encouraged the building of a fleet to attack them, the Founders also abandoned their planet and relocated as part of the ruse. (Of course, they probably did that anyway after being discovered in The Search.) We get a real example of just how dangerous Changeling infiltrators can be, they have the ability to replace any high-ranking official in an Alpha Quadrant government and weaken the standing of those empires. And what I really like about this plot is that the Federation isn't involved, this is a major interstellar event involving three alien empires and yet we still care and feel like it matters.

Another thing I love about this episode is how well it stands up while rewatching the show. The talk between Garak and Tain at the beginning, especially the part where Tain suggests executing Mila, hints at a deeper connection between those three characters than the show at this point acknowledges. The damage caused to the Obsidian Order here fatally wounds them and allows the upcoming revolution on Cardassia. The Changeling specifically threatens to target the Federation and Klingons next, and within a few months they're in conflict with one another because of another Changeling. And Admiral goldshirt "threatens" Sisko with promotion for his actions. It's a strong episode in its own right, but all these extra elements make it even more special.

Runabouts Lost: 3

So long USS Mekong, you're irreplaceable. At least until the USS Rubicon shows up.
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