TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

[apenpaap]

Nerys Ghemor wrote:

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Yeah, I had a BIG problem with the Iliana Ghemor storyline when I heard about it. Way to completely destroy every last bit of the impact of "Second Skin" and "Ties of Blood and Water," people.

Yeah. Not only that, but I also thought it was very much out of character for Dukat. Yes, he is an evil man, a very evil, horrible one even, but he is also a nuanced character.

Writing him as having imprisoned and raped Iliana for sixteen years was idiotic and detrimental to the character's good sides (which he had, in my eyes, though they were far outweighed by his bad sides), as well as just not something Dukat would do: he is convinced he is a good man and that everything he did was somehow for the better of the people he hit hardest with it. He always claims how benevolent he was in the Bajoran occupation, and let's not forget
If I remember "Wrongs Darker than Death or Night" correctly, he always gave the women he raped in the occupation lots of money and a better situation and all that to excuse it to himself. To make himself believe he was helping them. I could be mistaken, as it's been a while since I watched that episode. Either way, he always wanted his victims to acknowledge how good he'd been to them. Keeping Iliana imprisoned under horrible conditions for sixteen years is completely and utterly out of character in that light.

It's a pity, as Fearful Symmetry has one of the coolest cover designs I've ever seen, but it's contents are so poor.

[DS9 Gal AZ]

And, as for this particular episode - Mirror Tuvok. Really? Was it really necessary to have him appear here? I mean come on, VOY had only aired ten episodes at this point. Most meaningless character crossover ever!

Yes, I have to agree. It would have made more of an impact to see Mirror Tuvok later, when Tuvok Prime was a more established character. And we'd already seen a "rebel" version of Tuvok in the pilot when he was undercover with the Maquis (however briefly). Plus, if I recall, Mirror Tuvok was barely a presence in this episode anyway. Seriously, it's like Tim Russ just decided he wanted a few extra bucks in his paycheck that week and wandered onto the DS9 set without anyone noticing until filming was done, and then they decided it was easier to keep his scenes in than to try and cut them.

As for the MU in general, I agree with the "diminishing returns" theory someone posted upthread. But while Intendant Kira is my favorite part of the MU, I think my favorite moment is when Mirror-non-hologram-Vic Fontaine is killed. I seriously think that was a shout-out to all the people who hated Vic (like me!). They couldn't get rid of him in the Prime Universe, but at least we got to watch him die here. I actually cheered when that happened!

[DonIago]

I loved the randomness of Mirror Vic. And since we're never actually given his name, there's no reason to assume that he's anyone other than the person upon whom the appearance of Vic was based. Heck, maybe it was Felix.

I tend to agree with the diminishing returns theory as well. I don't have a problem with the Iliana Ghemor arc or how it impacts Dukat's character...frankly I regard it as a nice reminder that no matter how well Dukat may have come off at times, in the end he was a very sick, sick man. But I guess what you think of it ultimately depends on what you want Dukat to be.

As for Mirror Tuvok...I consider his appearance nothing more than a fun little cameo. Love it or leave it.

[Skywalker]

Yeah, I didn't mind the Mirror Tuvok cameo. It seemed like one of those "Hey, wouldn't it be kinda neat if..." moments. And it was neat.

[Sindatur]

Eh, he was the only current Vulcan regular at the time, it served to show a recognizable Vulcan and what side they were on in the Mirror Universe.

[MacLeod]

apenpaap wrote:

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I like Through the Looking Glass. To me, the µ-verse started great on DS9 and lost quality with each episode. Crossover was great, TtLG was good, Shattered Mirror was okay, Resurrection was poor and The Emperor's New Cloak was unbelievably awful.

I tend to agree with this as well. The first three MU episodes. Were decent enough, maybe not DSN at it's best but enjoyable all the same. Unfortuantly the last two I found to be rather poor.

[TheGodBen]

apenpaap wrote:

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I like Through the Looking Glass. To me, the µ-verse started great on DS9 and lost quality with each episode. Crossover was great, TtLG was good, Shattered Mirror was okay, Resurrection was poor and The Emperor's New Cloak was unbelievably awful.

Damnit, I forgot the µ symbol.

I used to agree that the µ-verse was a case of diminishing returns, but now I'm not so sure. What I perceive to be the scale in the drop of quality between Crossover and Through the Looking Glass was more than I was expecting. I'm really annoyed by what they did with µ-Kira's character, she had the potential to be an interesting villain in a similar way as Dukat, but she went from perverse version of Kira in Crossover to a comic-book villain far too quickly. At least Dukat had a few good seasons of development before he went bad.


Improbable Cause (*****)

I love this episode. I just love it. I've been waiting for this episode ever since the season began and the recent run of mediocre episodes has just made that wait harder. Because I love this episode. Have I made my opinion on this episode clear yet? I love the characters, and Garak and Odo are absolutely in their element here. I love the brilliant dialogue, especially during the classic "Boy Who Cried Wolf" scene. ("Clever Lad! Charming story." ) But what I really love about this episode is how an episode about an attempt on Garak's life could have turned out rather pedestrian, but that didn't happen. It could have been a simple case of the Obsidian Order attempting to kill Garak for whatever crime he commited in order to be exiled, or it could have been about a hate crime commited by a Bajoran terrorist. But no, these characters demand a better story than that, so we get numerous twists that build up to a final revelation of galactic significance.

Garak blowing up his own shop is one of those brilliant concepts that is not only a great plot device, it's also so very Garak. Is it possible for a human being not to love that character? Pairing him up with Odo was also a great idea, these two characters just click right off the bat, they almost have as much chemistry together as Quark and Odo do. Take the scene in the runabout where Garak posits that there's nobody in the galaxy that Odo actually cares for. There's so much going on there between the two of them underneath the surface. It's almost as if Garak knows the truth about Odo's love for Kira (which doesn't seem possible, but this is Garak we're talking about), but he says completely the opposite, and he does it all to distract Odo to stop him enquiring into his past. At the same time, it's possible that Garak wanted Odo to think that he looked up to Tain as a mentor so that Odo is satisfied enough not to pursue the truth that Tain is his father. Even though that element of Garak's past probably hadn't been dreamt up yet, it still fits well here. Also, while not expressly said in this episode, or the series as a whole, the short scene where Garak talks to Mila does give the impression that she's his mother, or at least a very close bond between them.

I love the conspiracy angle of the episode. I love how the episode slowly goes from an investigation of an assassination attempt on a former spy to a plot involving two major empires and a secret fleet of warships. Take the scene where Odo meets his Cardassian informant, on paper it could have been a boring expository scene designed to move the plot along in the old Star Trek cave set, but the way it's framed, the use of lighting, the ominous music, all these things add up to create a truly memorable scene. It doesn't matter that the Cardassian informant is little more than a plot device because it's written and directed so well. That guy gets more character development than Ensign Mayweather, and we don't even see his face!

Overall, I'm rather fond of this episode.

[Deranged Nasat]

TheGodBen wrote:

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[ I love the brilliant dialogue, especially during the classic "Boy Who Cried Wolf" scene. ("Clever Lad! Charming story." )

I agree; the scene's an absolute classic. My sister agrees, too; it's one of our shared favourites.

There's also this exchange, which you did mention in your post but is worth pasting in:

"Or am I wrong? Tell me, is there one person in this universe that you care about? One person that is more to you than just an interesting puzzle to be solved. Is there, Odo... anyone?"

"If there were, I certainly wouldn't tell you..."

"And that... would be a wise decision."

It's good to have reminders that Garak's not a nice person, lest we stop loving him for the reasons we do and start loving him out of the mistaken belief that he's our friend.

TheGodBen wrote:

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Also, while not expressly said in this episode, or the series as a whole, the short scene where Garak talks to Mila does give the impression that she's his mother, or at least a very close bond between them.

Interestingly enough, when I watched this episode with my mother (who sometimes sits through my sci-fi DVDs when she has nothing better to do), she immediately decided that Mila was Garak's mother. The way the two actors were playing it led her to make it a statement; "she's his mother". So I've always wondered if that was indeed the actors' intention (at least Robinson's), if not the writers.

[Ln X]

TheGodBen wrote:

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Improbable Cause (*****)

Nothing more needs to be said, this and The Die is Cast are five stars because they so profoundly change DS9, and throw in some amazing characterization and dialogue.

[apenpaap]

Given that A Stitch in Time expressly states Mila was Garak's mother, I'm sure Robinson intended it to come off that was when he played it.

[Deranged Nasat]

TheGodBen wrote:

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That guy gets more character development than Ensign Mayweather, and we don't even see his face!

I think Captain Boday and Vilix'pran get more character development than Mayweather, and we don't see their anything. At least their lives have developments in them, or so we're told.

It's a shame we never got the informant's name. There's a Cardassian informant of Odo's mentioned in season seven's Treachery, Faith and the Great River; Russol. It might be speculated that this is Russol.

[Deranged Nasat]

apenpaap wrote:

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Given that A Stitch in Time expressly states Mila was Garak's mother, I'm sure Robinson intended it to come off that was when he played it.

Good point. I'd not fully comprehended the significance of his being the author when I made my post. Anyway, he certainly succeded in getting the idea across onscreen if my mother's reaction is anything to go on.

[DonIago]

The Mila-Garak dialog did make enough of an impression on me that I was very much hoping she would show up again in the series, so you can imagine how thrilled I was to see her reappear in S7.

I'd still like to know who Odo's mysterious Cardassian contact was, though.

[Emher]

Skywalker wrote:

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He was pretty good in Kingdom of Heaven, too.

Indeed, he is fantastic in that movie.

Shatnertage wrote:

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That made me cry. I just really felt for the guy. And it was so unexpected.

I had absolutely no expectations going into this one when I watched it, and like TheGodBen says I initially thought it was going to be a typically preachy Trek episode about The Importance of Tolerance. The twist made it special for me, and as surprising as when Picard didn't order Worf to help that Romulan in "The Enemy" (I think that's the episode...is it?) and the Romulan died.

I remembered having seen that during it's first airing in Sweden looong time ago in my youth in about 94 or 95. At the time I couldn't really get that into it, I was more into the cool space stuff then dialog and drama. When I saw it again on DVD I was blown away. Such a fantastic episode.

I even liked it enough that I managed a screening of it in my HS class in connecting to my last year project. My teacher was very impressed about how a sci-fi show could take a concept that very much relates to real life and war traumas and put in a future setting.


Keep up the good work, TGB, very great stuff!

[Skywalker]

Emher wrote:

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Indeed, he is fantastic in that movie.

Wow, I had to click on the link to my own post to remember the context of it. I'd forgotten about that conversation.

But that reminds me, I really need to watch that movie again...