RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,362
Posts: 5,355,843
Members: 24,626
Currently online: 511
Newest member: glmrkills

TrekToday headlines

Borg Cube Fridge
By: T'Bonz on Jul 29

Free Enterprise Kickstarter
By: T'Bonz on Jul 29

Siddig To Join Game Of Thrones
By: T'Bonz on Jul 29

Sci-Fried To Release New Album
By: T'Bonz on Jul 28

Star Trek/Planet of the Apes Crossover
By: T'Bonz on Jul 28

Star Trek into Darkness Soundtrack
By: T'Bonz on Jul 28

Horse 1, Shatner 0
By: T'Bonz on Jul 28

Drexler TV Alert
By: T'Bonz on Jul 26

Retro Review: His Way
By: Michelle on Jul 26

MicroWarriors Releases Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 11 2012, 04:09 PM   #916
apenpaap
Commodore
 
apenpaap's Avatar
 
Location: Cardassia, where only the military metaphors work.
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Yeah, I had a BIG problem with the Iliana Ghemor storyline when I heard about it. Way to completely destroy every last bit of the impact of "Second Skin" and "Ties of Blood and Water," people.
Yeah. Not only that, but I also thought it was very much out of character for Dukat. Yes, he is an evil man, a very evil, horrible one even, but he is also a nuanced character.


It's a pity, as Fearful Symmetry has one of the coolest cover designs I've ever seen, but it's contents are so poor.
__________________
The Obsidian Order: Proudly watching you since the 19th century. And looking manly in our purple hats while doing that.
apenpaap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 11 2012, 05:40 PM   #917
DS9 Gal AZ
Captain
 
DS9 Gal AZ's Avatar
 
Location: I have always been here
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

And, as for this particular episode - Mirror Tuvok. Really? Was it really necessary to have him appear here? I mean come on, VOY had only aired ten episodes at this point. Most meaningless character crossover ever!
Yes, I have to agree. It would have made more of an impact to see Mirror Tuvok later, when Tuvok Prime was a more established character. And we'd already seen a "rebel" version of Tuvok in the pilot when he was undercover with the Maquis (however briefly). Plus, if I recall, Mirror Tuvok was barely a presence in this episode anyway. Seriously, it's like Tim Russ just decided he wanted a few extra bucks in his paycheck that week and wandered onto the DS9 set without anyone noticing until filming was done, and then they decided it was easier to keep his scenes in than to try and cut them.

As for the MU in general, I agree with the "diminishing returns" theory someone posted upthread. But while Intendant Kira is my favorite part of the MU, I think my favorite moment is when Mirror-non-hologram-Vic Fontaine is killed. I seriously think that was a shout-out to all the people who hated Vic (like me!). They couldn't get rid of him in the Prime Universe, but at least we got to watch him die here. I actually cheered when that happened!
__________________
"You do not understand, but you will." - Kosh to Sheridan, in "Interludes and Examinations."
DS9 Gal AZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 11 2012, 06:27 PM   #918
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I loved the randomness of Mirror Vic. And since we're never actually given his name, there's no reason to assume that he's anyone other than the person upon whom the appearance of Vic was based. Heck, maybe it was Felix.

I tend to agree with the diminishing returns theory as well. I don't have a problem with the Iliana Ghemor arc or how it impacts Dukat's character...frankly I regard it as a nice reminder that no matter how well Dukat may have come off at times, in the end he was a very sick, sick man. But I guess what you think of it ultimately depends on what you want Dukat to be.

As for Mirror Tuvok...I consider his appearance nothing more than a fun little cameo. Love it or leave it.
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"
DonIago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 11 2012, 06:32 PM   #919
Skywalker
Admiral
 
Skywalker's Avatar
 
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Yeah, I didn't mind the Mirror Tuvok cameo. It seemed like one of those "Hey, wouldn't it be kinda neat if..." moments. And it was neat.
Skywalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 11 2012, 07:38 PM   #920
Sindatur
Vice Admiral
 
Sindatur's Avatar
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Eh, he was the only current Vulcan regular at the time, it served to show a recognizable Vulcan and what side they were on in the Mirror Universe.
__________________
One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am

Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?
Sindatur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 11 2012, 08:07 PM   #921
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

apenpaap wrote: View Post
I like Through the Looking Glass. To me, the µ-verse started great on DS9 and lost quality with each episode. Crossover was great, TtLG was good, Shattered Mirror was okay, Resurrection was poor and The Emperor's New Cloak was unbelievably awful.
I tend to agree with this as well. The first three MU episodes. Were decent enough, maybe not DSN at it's best but enjoyable all the same. Unfortuantly the last two I found to be rather poor.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 11 2012, 08:35 PM   #922
TheGodBen
Rear Admiral
 
TheGodBen's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

apenpaap wrote: View Post
I like Through the Looking Glass. To me, the µ-verse started great on DS9 and lost quality with each episode. Crossover was great, TtLG was good, Shattered Mirror was okay, Resurrection was poor and The Emperor's New Cloak was unbelievably awful.
Damnit, I forgot the µ symbol.

I used to agree that the µ-verse was a case of diminishing returns, but now I'm not so sure. What I perceive to be the scale in the drop of quality between Crossover and Through the Looking Glass was more than I was expecting. I'm really annoyed by what they did with µ-Kira's character, she had the potential to be an interesting villain in a similar way as Dukat, but she went from perverse version of Kira in Crossover to a comic-book villain far too quickly. At least Dukat had a few good seasons of development before he went bad.


Improbable Cause (*****)

I love this episode. I just love it. I've been waiting for this episode ever since the season began and the recent run of mediocre episodes has just made that wait harder. Because I love this episode. Have I made my opinion on this episode clear yet? I love the characters, and Garak and Odo are absolutely in their element here. I love the brilliant dialogue, especially during the classic "Boy Who Cried Wolf" scene. ("Clever Lad! Charming story." ) But what I really love about this episode is how an episode about an attempt on Garak's life could have turned out rather pedestrian, but that didn't happen. It could have been a simple case of the Obsidian Order attempting to kill Garak for whatever crime he commited in order to be exiled, or it could have been about a hate crime commited by a Bajoran terrorist. But no, these characters demand a better story than that, so we get numerous twists that build up to a final revelation of galactic significance.

Garak blowing up his own shop is one of those brilliant concepts that is not only a great plot device, it's also so very Garak. Is it possible for a human being not to love that character? Pairing him up with Odo was also a great idea, these two characters just click right off the bat, they almost have as much chemistry together as Quark and Odo do. Take the scene in the runabout where Garak posits that there's nobody in the galaxy that Odo actually cares for. There's so much going on there between the two of them underneath the surface. It's almost as if Garak knows the truth about Odo's love for Kira (which doesn't seem possible, but this is Garak we're talking about), but he says completely the opposite, and he does it all to distract Odo to stop him enquiring into his past. At the same time, it's possible that Garak wanted Odo to think that he looked up to Tain as a mentor so that Odo is satisfied enough not to pursue the truth that Tain is his father. Even though that element of Garak's past probably hadn't been dreamt up yet, it still fits well here. Also, while not expressly said in this episode, or the series as a whole, the short scene where Garak talks to Mila does give the impression that she's his mother, or at least a very close bond between them.

I love the conspiracy angle of the episode. I love how the episode slowly goes from an investigation of an assassination attempt on a former spy to a plot involving two major empires and a secret fleet of warships. Take the scene where Odo meets his Cardassian informant, on paper it could have been a boring expository scene designed to move the plot along in the old Star Trek cave set, but the way it's framed, the use of lighting, the ominous music, all these things add up to create a truly memorable scene. It doesn't matter that the Cardassian informant is little more than a plot device because it's written and directed so well. That guy gets more character development than Ensign Mayweather, and we don't even see his face!

Overall, I'm rather fond of this episode.
__________________
...so many different suns...
TheGodBen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 11 2012, 11:17 PM   #923
Deranged Nasat
Vice Admiral
 
Deranged Nasat's Avatar
 
Location: I am here. You are here too. Yes.
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
[ I love the brilliant dialogue, especially during the classic "Boy Who Cried Wolf" scene. ("Clever Lad! Charming story." )
I agree; the scene's an absolute classic. My sister agrees, too; it's one of our shared favourites.

There's also this exchange, which you did mention in your post but is worth pasting in:

"Or am I wrong? Tell me, is there one person in this universe that you care about? One person that is more to you than just an interesting puzzle to be solved. Is there, Odo... anyone?"

"If there were, I certainly wouldn't tell you..."

"And that... would be a wise decision."

It's good to have reminders that Garak's not a nice person, lest we stop loving him for the reasons we do and start loving him out of the mistaken belief that he's our friend.
TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Also, while not expressly said in this episode, or the series as a whole, the short scene where Garak talks to Mila does give the impression that she's his mother, or at least a very close bond between them.
Interestingly enough, when I watched this episode with my mother (who sometimes sits through my sci-fi DVDs when she has nothing better to do), she immediately decided that Mila was Garak's mother. The way the two actors were playing it led her to make it a statement; "she's his mother". So I've always wondered if that was indeed the actors' intention (at least Robinson's), if not the writers.
__________________
We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile and nothing can grow there; too much, the best of us is washed away.
Deranged Nasat is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 11 2012, 11:22 PM   #924
Ln X
Fleet Captain
 
Ln X's Avatar
 
Location: The great gig in the sky
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Improbable Cause (*****)
Nothing more needs to be said, this and The Die is Cast are five stars because they so profoundly change DS9, and throw in some amazing characterization and dialogue.
__________________
Star Trek: The Approaching Shadow...

Caption contest: DS9
Ln X is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 11 2012, 11:28 PM   #925
apenpaap
Commodore
 
apenpaap's Avatar
 
Location: Cardassia, where only the military metaphors work.
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Given that A Stitch in Time expressly states Mila was Garak's mother, I'm sure Robinson intended it to come off that was when he played it.
__________________
The Obsidian Order: Proudly watching you since the 19th century. And looking manly in our purple hats while doing that.
apenpaap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 11 2012, 11:33 PM   #926
Deranged Nasat
Vice Admiral
 
Deranged Nasat's Avatar
 
Location: I am here. You are here too. Yes.
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
That guy gets more character development than Ensign Mayweather, and we don't even see his face!
I think Captain Boday and Vilix'pran get more character development than Mayweather, and we don't see their anything. At least their lives have developments in them, or so we're told.

It's a shame we never got the informant's name. There's a Cardassian informant of Odo's mentioned in season seven's Treachery, Faith and the Great River; Russol. It might be speculated that this is Russol.
__________________
We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile and nothing can grow there; too much, the best of us is washed away.
Deranged Nasat is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 11 2012, 11:34 PM   #927
Deranged Nasat
Vice Admiral
 
Deranged Nasat's Avatar
 
Location: I am here. You are here too. Yes.
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

apenpaap wrote: View Post
Given that A Stitch in Time expressly states Mila was Garak's mother, I'm sure Robinson intended it to come off that was when he played it.
Good point. I'd not fully comprehended the significance of his being the author when I made my post. Anyway, he certainly succeded in getting the idea across onscreen if my mother's reaction is anything to go on.
__________________
We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile and nothing can grow there; too much, the best of us is washed away.
Deranged Nasat is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 11 2012, 11:35 PM   #928
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

The Mila-Garak dialog did make enough of an impression on me that I was very much hoping she would show up again in the series, so you can imagine how thrilled I was to see her reappear in S7.

I'd still like to know who Odo's mysterious Cardassian contact was, though.
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"
DonIago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 12 2012, 01:33 AM   #929
Emher
Admiral
 
Emher's Avatar
 
Location: Emher
Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Emher Send a message via Yahoo to Emher
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Skywalker wrote: View Post
He was pretty good in Kingdom of Heaven, too.
Indeed, he is fantastic in that movie.
Shatnertage wrote: View Post
Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
The moment when Marritza breaks down and starts crying is possibly my favourite moment of the series, to be honest. Very powerful.
That made me cry. I just really felt for the guy. And it was so unexpected.

I had absolutely no expectations going into this one when I watched it, and like TheGodBen says I initially thought it was going to be a typically preachy Trek episode about The Importance of Tolerance. The twist made it special for me, and as surprising as when Picard didn't order Worf to help that Romulan in "The Enemy" (I think that's the episode...is it?) and the Romulan died.
I remembered having seen that during it's first airing in Sweden looong time ago in my youth in about 94 or 95. At the time I couldn't really get that into it, I was more into the cool space stuff then dialog and drama. When I saw it again on DVD I was blown away. Such a fantastic episode.

I even liked it enough that I managed a screening of it in my HS class in connecting to my last year project. My teacher was very impressed about how a sci-fi show could take a concept that very much relates to real life and war traumas and put in a future setting.


Keep up the good work, TGB, very great stuff!
__________________
"I am who I am. Someone has to be."-Brendan Gleeson as Reynald in Kingdom of Heaven. - Emher
Emher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 12 2012, 01:41 AM   #930
Skywalker
Admiral
 
Skywalker's Avatar
 
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Emher wrote: View Post
Skywalker wrote: View Post
He was pretty good in Kingdom of Heaven, too.
Indeed, he is fantastic in that movie.
Wow, I had to click on the link to my own post to remember the context of it. I'd forgotten about that conversation.

But that reminds me, I really need to watch that movie again...
Skywalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
deep space nine, ds9, episode discussion, review

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:07 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.