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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old February 10 2012, 06:49 AM   #31
billcosby
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Re: Reman Warbird Scimitar

cwl wrote: View Post
but anyone thing this ship was a little contrived?
Nearly everything about the film was contrived!
But it was my understanding that the ship was so badass with its weapons because it had somehow acquired Borg technology?
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Old February 10 2012, 06:53 AM   #32
AllStarEntprise
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Re: Reman Warbird Scimitar

The Scimitar is most likely a post Dominion War ship if you look at all it's technical specs.With it's 52 disruptors, 27 photon torpedo bays, perfect cloak, primary and secondary shields and a thalaron generator. With what we saw on how easily the Dominion ships ripped through the Romulan, Federation and Klingon ships. The Scimitar class could very well be a new class of Dreadnought ships.

Looking at how the the Sovereign class like the Enterprise-E has 16 type-XII phasers, 9 photon torpedo bays, 1 quantum torpedo bay, alblative armor was designed and commission after the Enterprise-D's first encounter with the Borg in "Q Who".

As far as it being built at a "secret base", that's possible as well. Given that the Romulan senate, military and Tal Shiar all operate with separate goals, prerogatives, and direction. It's not to much of a stretch that the Scimitar was built with in secret, of one of those organizations knowledge.
1. The senate was assassinated, but the praetor may have known of the scimitar class and the purpose the military had for it and rejected their proposal to use it.

2. Or The Tal Shiar may have commissioned the ship to be built. They are the secret police/ intelligence agency for the Romulans. They would have the resources to build such a ship.

3. The military in the movie and book seemed familiar with the ship and didn't display any foreseeable danger from Shinzon commanding it with Remans. Also think to the battle of Bassen Rift. The 2 Romulan Valdore class ships had no trouble tracking the Scimitar which was under cloak to the Bassen Rift.

It's possible that the Scimitar was built and with Shinzon being a commander of the Remans. He chose to use that ship manned only with Remans. Given that Remans are slaves we can rule out the Remans building completely independent of Romulan knowledge. Whomever helped set Shinzon up to stage a coup, are the people who gave put Shinzon in a position to command the Scimitar.

I believe the Scimitar class is selectable ship in Star Trek Online, and is used by the Romulans in that game.

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Old February 10 2012, 06:56 AM   #33
AllStarEntprise
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Re: Reman Warbird Scimitar

billcosby wrote: View Post
cwl wrote: View Post
but anyone thing this ship was a little contrived?
Nearly everything about the film was contrived!
But it was my understanding that the ship was so badass with its weapons because it had somehow acquired Borg technology?
Know the Scimitar doesn't have Borg tech. That would be the Narada. The borg tech it has though only grows and repairs the hull of the ship and helps run some of the ships functions since it's so massive and doesn't have the crew to do everything.

Can't stress this enough, IGNORE THE COUNTDOWN COMIC when it comes to talking about the Narada.
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Old February 10 2012, 10:10 AM   #34
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Re: Reman Warbird Scimitar

Oh shit, my bad. I got my Trek films crossed. :P
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Old February 10 2012, 10:30 AM   #35
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Re: Reman Warbird Scimitar

If the Narada really had Borg tech, then why is she portrayed as lacking in all the classic Borg abilities? She seems to be technologically humdrum (slow, almost unarmed), easily wounded (all ramming attacks against it are highly successful, and "shields up" or "shields down" make no difference whatsoever in combat), incapable of any visible self-repair, dependent on centralized resources, low on ammo...

Nero wouldn't have had the clout or the time to acquire any Borg tech, either. His "decades of meticulously planning an evil scheme of revenge" came only after he had been stranded away from home base! But Shinzon was right next to the resources of the Star Empire when doing his evil planning; if his supposed puppet masters wanted to support the Spartacus rebellion, they could very well have given Shinzon some select pieces of advanced alien technologies (clever Dominion deathdust, cutting edge Federation android inventions, Borg-inspired starship components) so that this definite underdog could have his day.

For all we know, the faction supporting Shinzon had installed all sorts of backdoors and dead man's switches to make sure Shinzon didn't get completely out of control. It's just that the movie did not show any instance where such things would have been necessary. Shinzon postured a lot, but he never e.g. killed one of his handlers, forced them to do distasteful things, or used the weapons at his disposal. When he did start his silly crusade against Earth, the handlers were divided on whether this was a good thing or not - and when they decided it was not, they launched a seemingly sufficient countermeasure in the form of two powerful warships against Shinzon's one. Even if Shinzon was the loud one, there's no indication he really called the shots, as there were no shots to be called, not really.

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Old February 10 2012, 11:15 AM   #36
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Reman Warbird Scimitar

The thing is, the Narada looks like it very much could use Borg technology, inside andout, right down to the eerie glow before the ship jumps to warp.

But, remember there's a difference between using Borg technology and using Romulan designs inspired by Borg tech. In "Countdown", Commander D'Spal says, "We retrofitted Borg technology and applied it to our own designs" - which is pretty much what Voyager did when building the Delta Flyer. Hence Narada having it's unique set of abilities and failings.
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Old February 10 2012, 11:27 AM   #37
AllStarEntprise
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Re: Reman Warbird Scimitar

Timo wrote: View Post
If the Narada really had Borg tech, then why is she portrayed as lacking in all the classic Borg abilities? She seems to be technologically humdrum (slow, almost unarmed), easily wounded (all ramming attacks against it are highly successful, and "shields up" or "shields down" make no difference whatsoever in combat), incapable of any visible self-repair, dependent on centralized resources, low on ammo...

I got the blu-ray special features version of the 09 movie to see all the canon abilities of the Narada. The Narada has reverse engineered Borg tech, helps grow the hull and repair the ship, and run the computer functions. The Narada is armed only with torpedos, and when Nero screamed "Fire Everything" you can count the torpedoes and see only 27 heading for the Jellyfish. The Narada is also equipped with transwarp drive, the special features claim. But nuEnterprise at warp 4 is able to catch up with the Narada as it heads for Earth after Nero destroyed Vulcan. Given the proximity of Earth and Vulcan, it's just another plot hole in the movie.

Timo wrote: View Post
Nero wouldn't have had the clout or the time to acquire any Borg tech, either. His "decades of meticulously planning an evil scheme of revenge" came only after he had been stranded away from home base!

The special features does insert that the "simple mining vessel" was upgraded by Romulans at the secret base "The Vault", after Romulus' destruction. Going by what we see in the movie though. Spock left Vulcan, en route to Romulus was destroyed, and Nero appears in his space octopus and both are sucked into the red matter black hole. There isn't time refit a ship that fast.
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Old February 10 2012, 11:36 AM   #38
Timo
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Re: Reman Warbird Scimitar

In "Countdown", Commander D'Spal says, "We retrofitted Borg technology and applied it to our own designs"
The Countdown rationale of equipping the Narada is fundamentally faulty, though: Nero's ship could not have been the Romulan instrument of revenge, because when there was something to avenge, there no longer was time to equip the ship (Nero got sent to the past within minutes or perhaps seconds of the loss of Romulus) - and before the calamity, a mining rig operated by civilians would have been the absolute last thing to receive such technologies.

Of course, an alternate storyline might have Nero getting sucked into the past, then spending 25 years acquiring Borg technology, because he would have late 24th century knowledge on where to look for it in the mid-23rd. But that wouldn't explain the looks of the Narada when she first appeared in our sights.

In contrast, the Romulans/Remans of ST:NEM would have all the time in the world to introduce Borg or Dominion technologies or other alien inventions into their latest round of warships. But apparently our UFP heroes aren't unfamiliar with thalaron technology... Indeed, thalarons take very few characters by surprise, the only arguable surprisees being the victims of the assassination in the teaser. Does this mean that

a) thalaron tech was common knowledge but there were no military technology experts in the Senate meeting, nobody to realize what they were seeing?
b) thalaron tech was common knowledge, but not commonly associated with floating spirals and fountains of sparkling particles?
c) thalaron tech was only known to few in the Star Empire, even though commonly known in Starfleet, and even the military experts in the Senate were unfamiliar with it?

The Scimitar is a strange construct in any case. She carries a heavy conventional armament that makes her a "predator" in UFP tactical analysis. Yet her entire structure appears to be dictated by the thalaron weapon, and our heroes only realize this after observing a telltale thalaron "leak". And she is large, representing a significant construction effort. Would Romulans really build a ship that combines the characteristics, when wars might better be waged by two separate designs? On the other hand, would Remans waste time with conventional firepower if their resources were limited and their sole intent was to blackmail their military superiors on the neighboring world?

Romulans clearly didn't want Earth (or any other enemy of theirs) destroyed by thalarons. So why build a thalaron ship, either for themselves or for Spartacus? Yet if they built a ship for Spartacus, how could the structurally fundamental addition of thalaron armament fail to attract their attention?

The Scimitar fits Shinzon's needs perfectly. It doesn't fit Shinzon's means, though; it fits Romulan means perfectly. But it doesn't fit Romulan needs...

But nuEnterprise at warp 4 is able to catch up with the Narada as it heads for Earth after Nero destroyed Vulcan. Given the proximity of Earth and Vulcan, it's just another plot hole in the movie.
Naah - it's just a nonsensical hole in the backstage information. If we ignore that information, then the idea of the Narada being a lumbering mining platform that can be outpaced by any and all 23rd century spacecraft is compatible with the plot...

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Old February 10 2012, 11:44 AM   #39
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Reman Warbird Scimitar

You're assuming events of a mind meld, in an already blisteringly fast-paced film, happened in real-time. Look at the Enterprise's warp to Vulcan - cut to look like it's happening in real time, but with Kirk, and then McCoy changing uniforms beween cuts, and Kirk's sedative having time to wear off.
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Old February 10 2012, 11:51 AM   #40
Timo
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Re: Reman Warbird Scimitar

I don't have to assume anything more than that Spock isn't telling an outright and sinister lie.

That is, Spock says he deployed the red matter and headed for home. Unless he is refusing to tell about something he did in the meantime that took several days, he's leaving us absolutely no time for this supposed upgunning of the Narada. Nero must meet with Spock before Spock's reputedly fast ship can return to Vulcan, indeed before that ship can leave the most immediate vicinity of the timehole, and that gives Nero only minutes at the very best.

Why would Spock omit a period of several days there? The omission is not reasonable in mere terms of "narrative brevity": we need a very explicit and sensible reason for Spock to remain where nothing else remained. It would be completely out of character for Spock to spend three days weeping for the lost Romulus, for example. Or to stare at the black hole out of idle scientific curiosity.

Add to this that the black holes created by red matter do not appear to live long. The 2233 thunderstorm in space would not remain a mystery in 2258 if it did not disappear before the Federation could send another team to look at it. Vulcan did not appear to leave behind a hole, either (although it might of course have been too small to be seen). And Spock's arrival at the 23rd century seemed to involve a temporal timehole rather than a permanent one, too. Nero and Spock could not have reached the 23rd century if they spent several days preparing for the trip.

EDIT: unless

a) the supernova-countering hole had more permanence than the other sorts (but this doesn't appear likely, because holes created by one droplet and holes created by a barrelful of the stuff were seen to be identical, and a hole involving a planet had no more permanence than holes created in stark vacuum)

b) Spock created a second hole some time after leaving Romulus, realizing his tiny ship had no other tactical chance against Nero's juggernaut but a daredevil maneuver around a black hole (but that in turn takes a narrative shortcut, as Spock only speaks of "the" black hole)

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Old February 10 2012, 11:58 AM   #41
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Reman Warbird Scimitar

There could have been time, from Romulus' destruction to Spock reaching the nova and dropping the Red Matter. Remember, he did launch from Vulcan. What was he supposed to tell Kirk? "The unthinkable happened.... the supernova destroyed Romulus. Then, as my ship still had several hours before reaching the leading edge of the shockwave, I spent time organizing my MP3 collection...."
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Old February 10 2012, 12:02 PM   #42
Timo
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Re: Reman Warbird Scimitar

That also stumbles on a narrative hurdle, as Spock explicates that he "had little time" at that specific juncture. If time were short for performing the explicit, only minute-long red matter procedure, it would certainly have been too short for installing Borg technology!

If Spock is taking narrative shortcuts, then adding the words "I had little time" make no sense, as they are both counterfactual and counterproductive for narrative brevity.

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Old February 10 2012, 12:29 PM   #43
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Reman Warbird Scimitar

"I had little time" is a VERY relative term. It means seconds to a runner, or a matter of months for a cancer patient. It's definitive proof of nothing.

The narrative had already cut to Spock's arrival at the supernova by that point, regardless.
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Old February 10 2012, 02:15 PM   #44
Timo
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Re: Reman Warbird Scimitar

If he had the luxury of several days of preparation before the arrival, he wouldn't be pressed for time at the arrival, by any measure.

The story isn't clear on exactly what Spock had "little time" for, since the damage to Romulus was already done. Saving the rest of the galaxy from the wavefront? A bit unlikely, since the speed of the wave would still be finite and the galaxy is big. Saving his own life? Quite possible, as apparently Spock's ship was incapable of outrunning even the Narada in those particular circumstances. Collapsing the supernova before the very mechanism of collapse slipped from his hands? Quite possible again, as the creation of a tiny little black hole always sounded like a dubious way to contain a gigantic galaxy-swallowing supernova.

In either of the latter two cases, an interval of days between the loss of Romulus and whatever action Spock took would appear quite implausible.

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