The highlights of Nemesis

[donners22]

I enjoyed most of it.

Hardy was great, and I ADORE that Shinzon coat!
Some of the dialogue between Shinzon and Picard was terrific.
The Remans were quite interesting, in looks and portrayal.
That scene where they were talking about Data brought a tear to my eye.

One of my favourite Trek films, actually.

[Caesar753]

Enterprise is Great wrote:

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I think that the movie would've been much better if it had a different director. Stuart Baid just didn't seem to connect with the material all that much. If Frakes had directed it it may have turned out better. It just didn't gel all that well and probably would've with a different director. The script probably needed another draft too.

I totally agree. Nemesis had some good ideas, but poor execution. If they had Frakes or someone else more familiar with Trek directing, things might have turned out better. Some serious script changes wouldn't have hurt either.

[Anji]

We'll never know Frakes' directing abilities because they didn't give him a script to work with in the first place.

You call Nemesis a script? I call it an afterthought. My high school creative writing teacher would've thrown that thing back at me!

[Therin of Andor]

Anji wrote:

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We'll never know Frakes' directing abilities because they didn't give him a script to work with in the first place.

Well, we do know Frakes' directing abilities, from his work on things like "The Offspring", "First Contact" and "Insurrection". He is able to draw out warmth between the main characters, while Stuart Baird seemed unable to do so.

[StevenR]

Therin of Andor wrote:

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Well, we do know Frakes' directing abilities, from his work on things like "The Offspring", "First Contact" and "Insurrection". He is able to draw out warmth between the main characters, while Stuart Baird seemed unable to do so.

I doubt any director could have fixed that script, no matter what tricks he used in instructing the actors, fiddling with the ending, and fixing it in post production.

The biggest problem is that words mean things. Nemesis has a definition and it isn't just "evil counterpart". Nemesis is an avenging spirit sent to punish people for the sin of hubris. At no point, even with his pontificiation of all things humanity has become, does Picard actually get so arrogant that the gods, such as they are, decide to slap him down. And Shinzon just doesn't do anything besides say "you had it good while I suffered. I'm going to destroy Earth. That'll show you."

In my mind, a better approach would have been for Picard to have to deal with someone he wronged who decides to take everything from Picard one piece at a time. Think Ben Finney writ large or Khan with patience. Maybe the Romulan version of Picard, a man of culture, intelligence, an appreciation for art and archaeology, and who just simply is brutal at times because of his own ego and quest for glory. Think Belloq versus Indy. They go after some MacGuffin and the anti-Picard uses Picard's own assests against him: his reputation as an explorer, his ship, his crew, everything Picard holds dear.

Instead we get Khan II with less hair.

[Therin of Andor]

StevenR wrote:

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And Shinzon just doesn't do anything besides say "you had it good while I suffered. I'm going to destroy Earth. That'll show you."

Or, was he saying to the Romulan people, "Your government has never been able to defeat Earth, so I will show you how it's done"?

[The Overlord]

Therin of Andor wrote:

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Or, was he saying to the Romulan people, "Your government has never been able to defeat Earth, so I will show you how it's done"?

Shinzon has every reason to hate the Romulans, much more so then Picard, so why would he do that in the first place?

[RyanKCR]

The Overlord wrote:

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Shinzon has every reason to hate the Romulans, much more so then Picard, so why would he do that in the first place?

To show them that they may have tossed him aside but look who was able to do what they couldn't.

[The Overlord]

Snoopy wrote:

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To show them that they may have tossed him aside but look who was able to do what they couldn't.

Why wouldn't he try to kill them all instead? If someone has their life ruined by someone else, it seems more natural that the person who feels wronged would seek revenge against the people who wronged him, not try and impress them. That's why Shinzon's motive makes no sense, he is mad at the federation even though they had nothing to do making his life miserable and is trying to impress the people who did ruin his life.

[RyanKCR]

The Overlord wrote:

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Why wouldn't he try to kill them all instead? If someone has their life ruined by someone else, it seems more natural that the person who feels wronged would seek revenge against the people who wronged him, not try and impress them. That's why Shinzon's motive makes no sense, he is mad at the federation even though they had nothing to do making his life miserable and is trying to impress the people who did ruin his life.

I didn't see it as impressing them but more like rubbing it into their faces. Remember when there was a change in government they threw him away to the mines. He then came back and forced another government change.

[The Overlord]

Snoopy wrote:

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I didn't see it as impressing them but more like rubbing it into their faces. Remember when there was a change in government they threw him away to the mines. He then came back and forced another government change.

That's pretty convoluted, killing all the Romulans would just make more sense then Shinzon trying to kill a bunch of people he had no real quarrel with, just rub it then the faces of the people he truly hates. Why not just kill the ones he hates rather then rubbing it in their faces. A defeated Federation would be a boon to the Romulan empire, Shinzon destroying the romulan Empire is far better revenge, because the people who hurt him, don't benefit.

This is why Shinzon is like Dr. Evil, instead of going with the most straight forward plan, he has to come up with some convoluted plan that would never work.

[Vasquez Rocks]

The sense I got from the movie and Shinzon (and this is just my feeling), is that he was planning on enslaving the Romulans after he used them to help him defeat Earth. So eventually the Remans would be the ultimate power on the planet(s) and in command, while the Romulans would be working for them. Poetic justice. Why kill them when he can make them slaves and make them feel what he felt.

[The Overlord]

Vasquez Rocks wrote:

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The sense I got from the movie and Shinzon (and this is just my feeling), is that he was planning on enslaving the Romulans after he used them to help him defeat Earth. So eventually the Remans would be the ultimate power on the planet(s) and in command, while the Romulans would be working for them. Poetic justice. Why kill them when he can make them slaves and make them feel what he felt.

Why not do that from the start and forget about destroying the Federation? There also no evidence he was planning that, so this just kinda guess work. That would have been nice to show, because him acting in Romulan Empire's interests didn't make sense.

Anyway you slice it, his motives for destroying the Federation were extremely vague and convoluted. He had motives for hating the Romulans, he even had motives for wanting Picard, but destroying the Federation, that made no sense.

[MasuPu'a]

The Overlord wrote:

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Why not do that from the start and forget about destroying the Federation? There also no evidence he was planning that, so this just kinda guess work. That would have been nice to show, because him acting in Romulan Empire's interests didn't make sense.

Anyway you slice it, his motives for destroying the Federation were extremely vague and convoluted. He had motives for hating the Romulans, he even had motives for wanting Picard, but destroying the Federation, that made no sense.

In addition, Shinzon seemed to be taking his own sweet time doing things.

[Therin of Andor]

The Overlord wrote:

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Shinzon has every reason to hate the Romulans, much more so then Picard, so why would he do that in the first place?

To prove his superiority over his gaolers.

Picard is a 24th century Starfleeter. He doesn't hate anyone, although the Borg have severely tested his stoicism.

The Overlord wrote:

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Why wouldn't he try to kill them all instead?

Shinzon killed the whole Senate. The Romulan people were more like slaves of the state, like him. And the Remans.