Does It Get Better???

[You_Will_Fail]

You_Will_Fail wrote:

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but then we are heading into the most episodic* Voyager seasons now.

I meant episodic, not serialized, woops.

teacake wrote:

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Hey You Will Fail I just watched your 30 Favorite Star Trek Episodes youtube in your sig. Wow what a trip that was.. yes I got a little teary a couple times (during the Worf and Jadzia scene). That was really lovely and makes me want to watch all of DS9 again which I have done too many times already. Very nice music too. Saw a couple eps there I had completely forgotten about.

Thanks! It took me ages! Its difficult making a top 30, and I'd love to see DS9 all through again too but my DVD boxset went missing a couple of years ago, havent got around to replacing it

JanewayRulz! wrote:

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Only have time to say... yes. In Macrocosm, Janeway uses a medical tricorder on Neelix after he's been stung, and she says there is fluid filling up his lungS. he corrects her and says... "Lung."

Was it's mention significant? Maybe not, but it was fun to hear the continuity.

Later for other thoughts.

Also, Neelix mentions Kes only having one lung in "Before and After" when she blows out the birthday cake.

As for Riker, I really didn't like the character or the actor.

[tighr]

dulcimer47 wrote:

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Neelix losing his lung - does this have ANY significance to the series? In fact is this even mentioned again in the series? I think the answer to both is "no." If a main character loses a lung, it should matter; maybe he needs special equipment to help his stamina during away missions, just something to communicate to the audience that what they've just seen actually matters and the writers aren't just throwing ideas out there with no regard for continuity.

I'm one of the staunchest supporters for continuity and Voyager hitting the reset button every week, but I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you here. The point of the story isn't Neelix's lung. That was simply the macguffin that got the plot moving. The point of that story was to introduce the Viddians, a technologically advanced race who had the very capability to steal your internal organs out from within you, and that is dangerous. The Viddians go on to be a race that Voyager encounters numerous times.

Again, setting aside the "lung", Neelix gained a respect for away missions in this episode, realizing that they are dangerous. The Doctor was able to show that he was highly capable this early in the series. Kes was shown to care deeply for Neelix. And more importantly, Neelix was shown to be a valued member of the crew, even though he had just signed on to Voyager weeks before. In the face of a dangerous new enemy, Voyager seeks out the perpetrators in order to seek help for their new friend. They could have let Neelix die.

Continuity isn't just about experiences being carried over from episode to episode, but about the changes in the character, so that they aren't just static but dynamic. If you wanted to point out instances where a character should have learned from their mistakes in a previous episode and didn't, Voyager has MANY MANY MANY more better examples than a character losing a lung.

[dulcimer47]

JanewayRulz! wrote:

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Only have time to say... yes. In Macrocosm, Janeway uses a medical tricorder on Neelix after he's been stung, and she says there is fluid filling up his lungS. he corrects her and says... "Lung."

Was it's mention significant? Maybe not, but it was fun to hear the continuity.

Later for other thoughts.

I stand corrected, however, in my opinion, whether Janeway says "lung" or "lungs" is pretty trivial. What matters is whether the character (Neelix) is affected in any significant way by this major event (as any normal person would be). It could take the form of PTSD, or another form, just something that communicates to the audience that these are real people (within the universe of the show), and not Sesame Street characters.

[dulcimer47]

tighr wrote:

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I'm one of the staunchest supporters for continuity and Voyager hitting the reset button every week, but I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you here. The point of the story isn't Neelix's lung. That was simply the macguffin that got the plot moving. The point of that story was to introduce the Viddians, a technologically advanced race who had the very capability to steal your internal organs out from within you, and that is dangerous. The Viddians go on to be a race that Voyager encounters numerous times.

Again, setting aside the "lung", Neelix gained a respect for away missions in this episode, realizing that they are dangerous. The Doctor was able to show that he was highly capable this early in the series. Kes was shown to care deeply for Neelix. And more importantly, Neelix was shown to be a valued member of the crew, even though he had just signed on to Voyager weeks before. In the face of a dangerous new enemy, Voyager seeks out the perpetrators in order to seek help for their new friend. They could have let Neelix die.

Continuity isn't just about experiences being carried over from episode to episode, but about the changes in the character, so that they aren't just static but dynamic. If you wanted to point out instances where a character should have learned from their mistakes in a previous episode and didn't, Voyager has MANY MANY MANY more better examples than a character losing a lung.

I agree.

I was just commenting on an early post in this thread, I've only read the first few pages, and based on the length of this thread, it's clear there is much debate on the question of "does it get better???"

[You_Will_Fail]

Its not like Neelix was a pro-athlete. Only having one lung would hardly make an interesting character arc.....I think the storylines regarding his past, his dead relatives, his loss of faith, his attachment to Naomi were a tad more important than a missing lung.

[tighr]

dulcimer47 wrote:

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What matters is whether the character (Neelix) is affected in any significant way by this major event (as any normal person would be). It could take the form of PTSD, or another form, just something that communicates to the audience that these are real people (within the universe of the show), and not Sesame Street characters.

I think it was actually a better idea to have Neelix be the one who suffered the missing lung and the repercussions of it (which my other post mentioned, it does change him for the better) than some random red-shirt ensign. If there was one problem with TOS, its that no one gave a shit every time a red-shirt kicked the bucket.

Voyager has plenty of examples of random "red-shirts" getting killed off, when I would much rather they have used an established character. Killing someone we already know and love conveys the magnitude of their situation (think, Tasha Yar in Skin of Evil. Holy shit, that mud monster just killed Yar! He's evil!!!!!!)

[exodus]

dulcimer47 wrote:

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I stand corrected, however, in my opinion, whether Janeway says "lung" or "lungs" is pretty trivial. What matters is whether the character (Neelix) is affected in any significant way by this major event (as any normal person would be). It could take the form of PTSD, or another form, just something that communicates to the audience that these are real people (within the universe of the show), and not Sesame Street characters.

I accept the fact that Neelix is alien and so is his physiology.
So I don't expect him to have these set backs or that the issue would be ongoing. Besides, I'd like to think in a universe with hyposprays, transporters, replicators and papa Joe Sisko being kept alive with artificial organs, medical science would have also moved beyond the use of an iron lung.

How real does Trek need to be before it stops being fiction?

[dulcimer47]

You_Will_Fail wrote:

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Its not like Neelix was a pro-athlete. Only having one lung would hardly make an interesting character arc.....I think the storylines regarding his past, his dead relatives, his loss of faith, his attachment to Naomi were a tad more important than a missing lung.

I agree, and outside of "Jetrel", how much of any of this was really dealt with?

It's not like I expect multiple episodes with him in physical therapy or anything, I'm just saying that the loss of the lung did not affect the character in any way from that point forward. If someone skipped "Phage", would they even notice, other than for Janeway's two-second reference and Neelix's correction of her that someone mentioned earlier.

In some ways, this is just the flaw with episodic storytelling. Voyager was basically an anthology series with the exception that the main characters were the same every episode, but almost nothing mattered episode-to-episode.

[Guy Gardener]

Oh bother.

[You_Will_Fail]

dulcimer47 wrote:

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I agree, and outside of "Jetrel", how much of any of this was really dealt with?

It's not like I expect multiple episodes with him in physical therapy or anything, I'm just saying that the loss of the lung did not affect the character in any way from that point forward. If someone skipped "Phage", would they even notice, other than for Janeway's two-second reference and Neelix's correction of her that someone mentioned earlier.

In some ways, this is just the flaw with episodic storytelling. Voyager was basically an anthology series with the exception that the main characters were the same every episode, but almost nothing mattered episode-to-episode.

Its just a freaking lung, what did you expect them to do exactly? Write episodes about how Neelix is out of breath? The lung that is left adjusts and becomes stronger, Neelix would hardly be at any disadvantage in his daily routine.

[tighr]

dulcimer47 wrote:

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If someone skipped "Phage", would they even notice, other than for Janeway's two-second reference and Neelix's correction of her that someone mentioned earlier.

If someone skipped Phage, they would miss all of the plot exposition that I mentioned in my earlier post. At this point I don't feel like re-iterating it anymore, So I'll just link you to that post:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?...&postcount=917

[exodus]

dulcimer47 wrote:

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I agree, and outside of "Jetrel", how much of any of this was really dealt with?

Ummm, "Rise", ""Mortal Coil", "Once Upon a Time", Homestead"....

It's not like I expect multiple episodes with him in physical therapy or anything, I'm just saying that the loss of the lung did not affect the character in any way from that point forward. If someone skipped "Phage", would they even notice, other than for Janeway's two-second reference and Neelix's correction of her that someone mentioned earlier.

How many episodes did TNG take to cover the affects of Worf having spinal replacement surgery?

How many eps did DS9 do about Nog loosing a leg?

[Lord Manitou]

Their was no evidence throughout the series Neelix ever got sick because of one lung. If he didn't already acquire a second lung he probably would receive some type of replacement from the Talaxians when he got onto the asteroid in "Homestead". I had to give up smoking- I know how it is.

[AdmiralScreed]

Sorry it's been awhile since my last Voyager update. I've been staying at school late into the evening all week, so I haven't had any time to watch Voyager. I should have time to watch more tomorrow night. I just thought I would let you all know.

[exodus]

AdmiralScreed wrote:

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Sorry it's been awhile since my last Voyager update. I've been staying at school late into the evening all week, so I haven't had any time to watch Voyager. I should have time to watch more tomorrow night. I just thought I would let you all know.

Hurry!!!
We need to get this post back on topic.