The OFFICIAL STNG Next Level Bluray watch and review thread

[Mark 2000]

Sho wrote:

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Now, there are also many people who are deeply unhappy with how he died in the movie, calling it an anti-climactic death, badly written, and so on. But I've never felt that, either.

I think the idea of old soldiers not dying but simply fading away works best here. Unless it's done really well...

I always liked the fan rumor that "Too Short a Season" was supposed to be Kirk on Neural. There's something about Kirk dying in order to answer for his mistakes making sense to me. He threw so many worlds into chaos and left them behind without a thought. It would have made sense and I would have accepted it. It's the same reason the Trial on JTK was so popular in the DC comic series. It made way too much sense to pit Kirk against all the lives he touched for better or worse. It's a shame the authors blew that one by letting him off the hook with a dues ex machina. Bouncing off a bridge has no poetry. Not even in the name of several million lives.

Sho wrote:

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I thought Shatner and Stewart had good chemistry in Generations, and in their scenes together both characters were treated well and had compelling points made about them.

Lets accept that Patrick Stewart has chemistry with everyone. Other than that I disagree with you. Kirk seemed strangely manic and bafoonish in the nexus, running around only half listening to the strange bald man in his house. Picard was never fooled by the illusion, but Kirk lived it for 80 years. That makes Kirk seem like an epic moron in comparison.

Sho wrote:

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well, I don't think just because the character is grand he has to die with a grand gesture.

But, again, his death needs to make sense in the context of his life. This didn't. I would have preferred Kirk dying embarrassed and ashamed as the man he always was than anonymously in an act of heroism that had no context. Only Moriarty could kill Holmes. Only Vicious could kill Spike.

[the_wildcard]

Well I just picked up the DVD this week from Target. I saw the episode "Sins of the Father" as the first one (didn't have time to watch farpoint). I mistakenly was hoping for the episodes to be in widescreen.

[Sho]

Link

[GalaxyX]

Lets accept that Patrick Stewart has chemistry with everyone. Other than that I disagree with you. Kirk seemed strangely manic and bafoonish in the nexus, running around only half listening to the strange bald man in his house. Picard was never fooled by the illusion, but Kirk lived it for 80 years. That makes Kirk seem like an epic moron in comparison.

I think there was a line in the movie that stated that from Kirk's point of view, he had just arrived in the Nexus along with Picard.

I think that line about "great soldiers not dying but fading away" actually explains my feelings on the matter quite well.

We "know" Kirk is probably dead by the time of TNG. Prior to Generations, we are not given any hints as to how his life ended. I always liked to imagine that he did so quietly of old age enjoying his retirement.

Instead, his death was just as empty as Tasha's death, killed by a freak bridge accident, his reward for wanting to help another starfleet captain and "make a difference again".

If you look at it from a realistic point of view, sure you could say that was certainly a possible scenario. However, I go to watch movies to be entertained. And tragic endings are not entertaining. I'm glad I didn't go to the theater to watch that one, but they did force feed it to me if I wanted to buy the 6 TOS movies on DVD (I had to get the full 10 DVD pack with the TNG movie). I watched it once, and out of all the idiotic stuff that happened, this scene was the worst (and then right after, Data finds his cat alive and cries, and this is supposed to "uplift us" again and leave the film in a positive note )

[Sho]

Well, if that didn't come across - I actually didn't feel that Kirk's was a tragic ending. I always did imagine Kirk dying in the line of duty, and so he did, fighting for something worthwhile. Certainly not of old age in retirement. And against all odds, as he went he was with one of the few people in the universe who could understand him because they too sat on the same chair as he did. The specifics ("freak bridge accident") don't matter; all death is ungraceful in its mechanics.

Re Kirk behaving manically in the Nexus, again, worked for me. The character did have a manic streak at times, and he certainly also consistently showed an unhappyness with aspects of his life and life choices, as well as changes in his carreer and role in the universe. To me the events in the Nexus nicely played up themes from TMP and Wrath again, and bookended them to a degree. Kirk was not perfect, it's what made him interesting, and he often ultimately derived strength from his inner turmoil, as here.

[Mark 2000]

Sho wrote:

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The character did have a manic streak at times.

When?

[Sho]

Err, for about half of Wrath of Khan? Or the first third of TMP when he was pissed at everybody?

[Mark 2000]

Sho wrote:

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Err, for about half of Wrath of Khan? Or the first third of TMP when he was pissed at everybody?

I don't think Kirk is manic at all in TWOK. He looses his cool for no reason in the Genesis cave, but that's about it. In TMP he's petulant and dumb, but not really manic. But these are both examples of bad writing and I wouldn't use them as references to make a point. The worst thing about those two movies is that Kirk isn't the hero and he's ineffective and wrong most of the time.

[Sho]

Mark 2000 wrote:

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But these are both examples of bad writing and I wouldn't use them as references to make a point.

Leaving aside the "is it manic or not" for the moment, that's basically saying "please ignore these instances of canon that I personally dislike". To me they're part of who Kirk is.

[Mark 2000]

Sho wrote:

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Leaving aside the "is it manic or not" for the moment, that's basically saying "please ignore these instances of canon that I personally dislike". To me they're part of who Kirk is.

Sorry, this isn't a religious debate, so "canon" is meaningless. It's a discussion of whether Kirk is acting in a way that is reasonable for his character and picking two moments that are poorly done is not a good argument that something similar is well done.

[Sho]

I'm saying that they are poorly done in your estimation while I personally tend to give the writers the benefit of the doubt and assume a certain characterization was intentional and well-meaning and try to wring something I find interesting from it. Put in another way, I'm more likely to opt for "hm, interesting, that was unexpected and puts a new light onto the character" than "bah humbug, that was grossly inconsistent with the character". That may also explain my "forgiving" attitude towards Generations to you.

Actually, this reminds me a lot of the recent The Most Toys thread where a similar debate happened about Data's actions in the episode, which are either inconsistent with the character or not depending on who you ask, as well as possibly morally and/or legally questionable. There's some amount of churn in there but still an interesting read overall.

[Maurice]

manic |ˈmanik|
adjective
showing wild and apparently deranged excitement and energy : his manic enthusiasm | a manic grin.

Kirk. Not. Manic. Period.

[Mitty]

Just delivered from Amazon UK. I've already watched Sins of the Father and Inner Light.

My breath is taken away... what's old is new again. Every shot of the Enterprise is just beautiful. The opening credits are beautiful. Yes, the title fonts are very noticeable that they are different, but to me that just reminds me of the work that's been done here, I really have no problem with it.

I'm not sure I'm going to bother with seasons 1 or 2, but Give Season 3. That's the season I really got into TNG.

[Tosk]

Just got mine too, finally. I am content.

All the little bits and pieces that people have been nitpicking (Sins opening shot, Inner grain, CG...) had no ill effects on me. Everything was just great.

My two fave "fixes" were very little things. Tasha being thawed out, the seamless edit during Data and Riker's holodeck conversation, and they fixed the see-through floor when the Ent makes a run for it from the Q grid.

P.S. I hadn't seen this mentioned before, but there are definitely more CG Enterprise shots. At the very least, the shot of her at warp without the saucer is CG.

[Trekker4747]

Mark 2000 wrote:

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Sorry, this isn't a religious debate, so "canon" is meaningless.

You realize, I'm sure, that "canon" need not exclusively refer to religious institutions like pretty much all words canon has more than one definition one being a body of fiction accepted to be "official."