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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old February 1 2012, 10:40 AM   #811
MacLeod
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Worf'sParmach wrote: View Post
Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
Of these seven episodes (A Simple Investigation, Profit and Loss, Counterpoint, Lessons, In Theory, Rejoined and Lifesigns) I'm noticing a theme - the "good" ones tend to involve either a relationship that already has history or one that doesn't really end in "love.".
That's a good observation. I think when there is some history it makes it more believable. When you go from just meeting someone to being willing to throw away your entire life away for them by the next act (cough, "Meridian," cough) it seems very disingenuous.

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
I like the tone of the episode. I like seeing some alien version of a celebratory holiday. Star Trek doesn't do holidays and never has, there's no Space Christmas, there's no Space Halloween, and there's no St Space Patrick's Day. I understand that this is because Star Trek doesn't want to push western/Christian culture as being the dominant one in the future and that's all well and good, but as a secularist I can't say that I look forward to a future where cultural and religious holidays disappear entirely. What holidays have we seen in Trek? There was Captain Picard Day, but that was only observed on the Enterprise and Mintaka III. Voyager mentioned a First Contact Day, but that was just an excuse for Neelix to be more obnoxious than normal. So this Bajoran Gratitude Festival is the only time that we really get to see characters in the Trek universe taking the day off, kicking back and enjoying themselves. The episode uses this to try out interesting and complex cinematography, there's more energy than normal on the sets, even the colours seem more vibrant than normal.
Totally agree with this. I think it's what makes me (somewhat) like this episode as well. It makes like seem more real and relatable. Who wants to never celebrate anything or never have a reason for a 3 day weekend?
I believe Thanksgiving was mentioned in an episode of TOS, "Charlie X"?

Perhaps after the post atomic horror when Earth rebuilt itself they decded that some things were best left in the past. Perspective can can views.
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Old February 1 2012, 01:06 PM   #812
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

^ Not quite sure what you mean. After a post atomic horror, people decided they should stop enjoying themselves?
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Old February 1 2012, 02:09 PM   #813
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Christmas leads to family squabbling, family squabbling leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to war, war...leads to nuclear apocalypse.

Christmas leads to nuclear apocalypse.
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Old February 1 2012, 02:15 PM   #814
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I thought it was....

....leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.

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Old February 1 2012, 03:03 PM   #815
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
^ Not quite sure what you mean. After a post atomic horror, people decided they should stop enjoying themselves?
Yes but what if the cause of it was a difference over say religion.

So for example what would American Independance day mean to the billions of people for whom it had no meaning what so ever?

It might be more of a case we don't see them being observed rather than they are not observed. If you show a particulr holiday you run the risk of ailenating a part of your audiance if you don't show theirs.
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Old February 1 2012, 05:05 PM   #816
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Fascination (**½)
Now that you've heard what I have to say, please feel free to attack me and my diminished credibility. But please, leave my family out of it, they don't deserve to be punished for my mistakes.
I agree with you, what saved Fascination was all that kissing, and O'Brien grovelling to Keiko. I can also safely say that this episode is where Alexander Siddig and Nana Visitor began their relationship. They seemed to enjoy the kissing rather a lot... Good stuff... But yeah this episode had a weird feel to it.

It was like the episode was on drugs and all I distinctly remember was Lwaxana spinning Odo around, and Kira in that nice looking dress in front of that fire thingy to burn your bad memories or karma (or was it burn stuff to wish more similar stuff to come back?). Every one of those writers must have been blottoed, blottoed and blottoed when this weird farce/romp of an episode came about.

Who said free-flowing camera shots started in Star Trek with JJ Abrams? This episode was chock full of them, and they messed around with the colours, just like JJ messes around with his lense flares...
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Old February 1 2012, 07:09 PM   #817
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Past Tense, Part 1 (***½)

In this week's very special episode of Blossom, Captain Sisko and friends travel back in time and take on the complicated issue of homelessness and rising poverty that resulted from the 2008 financial crash and the eventual implosion of the euro. Well, that's the way this episode is portrayed these days, as yet another sign of the prescience of DS9 or whatever. And I suppose it's a fair point, these are issue that we are struggling to deal with right now. Unemployment is high, the middle class is being squeezed, and income inequality is rising. It's a timely episode, which appears to be one of the problems some people have with it. Some criticise the episode for being too simplistic and not providing any solutions to the problems. Okay, yes, it is too simplistic, and it doesn't provide any answers, but it's not the place of a sci-fi show to provide answers to complex economic and social problems, but it can make us think about an issue. Whatever about this episode's failings, it does try to spark a debate.

The fundamental problem from the episode's point of view is that ordinary people can't be bothered to care about the disadvantaged. But there is a grain of truth to that. It's not so much that we don't care, but that we care about other things more. We might donate money to charity if we have some available, but the majority of us are more interested in spending our time discussing sci-fi shows from the 90s that dealt with issues like homelessness on the internet than we are spending that time trying to sort out the actual problem. Not all of us, some of us may volunteer our time helping the poor whenever we can, but a lot of us (including myself, I must admit) look at the problem, occasionally throw money at it and then go back to watching Minecraft videos on Youtube. And when they threatened to take away our Youtube? By gods did people act then.

So yes, the episode is simplistic, but it's not entirely untrue, it just needed to be more subtle about what it was trying to say.

Other issues with the episode? Well, I'm not a fan of the casual use of time travel, and this one has such a random use of it. The cloaking device emits chroniton particles which got stuck in the ablative armour and there was a micro-singularity which passed through the Sol system, then it exploded releasing temporal energy at the precise moment of the transport and boom... time travel. That's another issue, the amount of technobable O'Brien is forced to say goes beyond the norm, and the norm is high enough as it is.
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Old February 1 2012, 10:44 PM   #818
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

The only real problem I had with this episode is how preachy it got with Bashir being ridicuously naive. Plus there is disparity in that Sisko says the Bell Riots will bring about much needed welfare and socio-economic reforms (perhaps from the crash of 08'; bleeding banksters and squid...), and then only thirty years later comes world war 3 and mankind takes many steps backwards.

It seemed things got worse before they got better, though maybe Sisko was refering to laws passed after the Bell Riots that were the precursor for global government laws designed to eliminate poverty, hunger, want, oppression and inequality. I dunno... But the episode was spot on when Europe said it was in shambles...

Hell Europe is already halfway there with the Euro debt crisis, so does that mean all EU leaders are not big fans of this episode? Perhaps Prophet Benny did really forsee the future...

This episode was good, and it brought up some good morale points, but it had to hit you on the head with a sledge hammer just to drive the message home... So a good call TheGodBen.
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Old February 2 2012, 01:00 AM   #819
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I think I agree with you on Past Tense. I enjoy the episodes - they're well done and effective enough. They don't quite have the clout as some of the other two-parters DS9 did though. (I'm thinking The Maquistwo-parter; Improbable Cause/The Die is Cast; Homefront/Paradise Lost; and In Purgatory's Shadow/By Inferno's Light.)

It was a random use of time travel, but I like how it just sort of happened. And I also enjoyed Kira and O'Brien beaming down to the different time zones in part two.

I also really like Sisko in these episodes. It's season three where Sisko has been dealt with in a more interesting way than what we had before, and Past Tense gives him another chance to operate outside the box. It was good development for him.
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Old February 2 2012, 02:37 AM   #820
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Minor point, but it's kind of interesting that Kira's hairstyle permanently changes mid-episode here. When she's in uniform at the beginning, she's got that swept up look she's been sporting for all of season 3 up to this point, but then when she changes into civvies with O'Brien she's got that parted style she keeps for the rest of the season. Just thought I'd bring it up since it's my favorite Kira hairstyle.
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Old February 2 2012, 03:46 AM   #821
Admiral Shran
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I kind of like Past Tense as well, even though Ln X is right in that Bashir is ridiculously naive.

It's great because people from both sides of the political spectrum can make compelling arguments from it. I'll save my thoughts (from the "conservative" side of the spectrum) until after Part II, however.
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Old February 2 2012, 11:15 AM   #822
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I really liked Bashir in this episode; I think it's where he really starts to develop from the guy he was in season 1 to the guy he is in season 7.
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Old February 2 2012, 10:03 PM   #823
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Past Tense, Part 2 (***½)

On the second part of this very special episode of Blossom, Captain Sisko keeps the peace by wielding a shotgun, Kira and O'Brien meet some hippies, and Odo says "Whoa!" While still being quite preachy, this episode tones it down a bit from part one where the majority of the story consisted of Sisko and Bashir talking about how horrible the whole sanctuary district thing is. That's because this episode actually has a story, a story about hostages, madmen, and internetworks. Still, the episode does end with one of the least subtle scenes in the show, where Bashir asks Sisko why things were allowed to get so bad. I half-expected Sisko to look directly into the camera and say "Only you can prevent ̶w̶i̶l̶d̶f̶i̶r̶e̶s̶ sanctuary districts."

A lot is made of Sisko's characterisation in this episode and how it signals the true arrival of The Sisko. I have to admit that during this rewatch Avery Brook's performance wasn't quite as off-key as I remembered it being in the early seasons. All the weird little eccentricities and restrained anger were there all along, but the writers didn't seem to get a handle on how to write for the character yet. In this episode he finally gets a chance to cut loose and be a badass, which is something that Avery's "theatrical" style was made for, so it's not so much that Sisko's character changed it's just that it finally starts to develop in the right way. As for Avery Brooks' performance, I can understand why some people have a problem for it but to me it's just part of the character. Sisko's a little weird and that's part of the reason why I like him. And from what I've seen in interviews Avery is pretty weird himself, which is why I like him too.

Less commented upon about this episode is how Bashir's character comes of age too. His obnoxiousness has been toned down considerably since the first season, but coming into contact with such abject poverty appears to have changed him somewhat. Remember back in Emissary how he revelled about the possibilities of being out on the frontier? Well, now he has truly experienced what that means and he has found the frontier on his own home planet, which is a pretty big learning experience for him. He's less the brave, young, idealistic doctor, now he transitions into a more seasoned, cynical phase which will culminate with the Section 31 arc in the later seasons.

As an aside, back when I first saw this episode I scoffed slightly at the idea of "the net". The internet was a big buzzword at the time, futurologists were talking about how it would revolutionise the world and it seemed like Star Trek was buying into the spin. I was wrong, if anything this episode undersold just how big a thing the internet would be. Of course, this episode also overestimated how interested internet users would be in current events and tragedies when they could be watching clips of people wiggling their eyebrows on Youtube or making comical images about insane wolves.
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Old February 3 2012, 04:16 AM   #824
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

This is pretty good episode, mostly due to Sisko and Bashir's "coming of age." However, I think it truly misses the mark with "the message."

The Sanctuary Districts aren't examples of what happens when people at large stop caring, it's what happens when governments stop caring. What we have here is a situation where the government has forcibly relocated people it deems "undesirable" into special areas that are separated from the rest of the public. It then forces those people to remain there and violently reacts when they try to change their lives. Does that excuse the fact that the general public seems oblivious? No. However, I would say it shows that people are under the impression of "well, the government is taking care of the situation, so why should I bother with it." Whenever the government takes over something like this, you get the extreme overreaction of storm the place with guns blazing, and that isn't justified either. Private individuals and groups need to step up and deal with the situation in a humane way - something governments, IMHO, aren't capable of doing.

We also have a situation where the government is using rationing to control the public - just like big governments tend to do. When Sisko and Bashir are first caught, they're asked to produce their "U.H.C. cards" (Universal Health Care cards maybe?). When they can't do that, they're immediately assumed to be vagrants and carted off to the District by men who work directly for the government. And yet, amazingly, the episode never makes mention of the fact that if it wasn't for these government programs the problems wouldn't exist in the first place. No, instead it's the fault of the general public for "not caring." You get the distinct impression that the episode's ultimate message is that what is needed is an even larger government to come in and fix the problems even though it was the government that caused them in the first place. Intervention wouldn't solve the problem of intervention.

Of course, all that ignores the problem of B.C. being a cold-blooded killer who gets a pass just because he's homeless.

Sometimes the show delves into libertarian ideas like this (Shakaar being another example), but often doesn't follow through with them.
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Old February 3 2012, 04:25 AM   #825
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Past Tense is a pretty good episode; both parts have their flaws, certainly, but overall its well worth watching.

Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
However, I think it truly misses the mark with "the message."

...The Sanctuary Districts aren't examples of what happens when people at large stop caring, it's what happens when governments stop caring....

...Does that excuse the fact that the general public seems oblivious? No. However, I would say it shows that people are under the impression of "well, the government is taking care of the situation, so why should I bother with it." Whenever the government takes over something like this, you get the extreme overreaction of storm the place with guns blazing, and that isn't justified either. Private individuals and groups need to step up and deal with the situation in a humane way...

...And yet, amazingly, the episode never makes mention of the fact that if it wasn't for these government programs the problems wouldn't exist in the first place. No, instead it's the fault of the general public for "not caring." You get the distinct impression that the episode's ultimate message is that what is needed is an even larger government to come in and fix the problems even though it was the government that caused them in the first place. Intervention wouldn't solve the problem of intervention.
Very good points, Admiral Shran. Particularly the tendency for the answer to a problem being, somehow, more of the same. This is a mindset that seems to occur frequently - not just in politics, I hasten to add, but everywhere. People are willing to question, but only so far. All too often, they'll register the problem but are unwilling to truly commit psychologically to the acknowledgment. They fall back on what seems safe, despite that often being, in part at least, exactly what provoked or worsened the problem in the first place.
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