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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old February 2 2012, 01:44 AM   #151
Maxwell Everett
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Re: The OFFICIAL STNG Next Level Bluray watch and review thread

Dac wrote: View Post

But In VLC I just push a button...
Then use that. VLC will play .m2ts files. After you've run AnyDVDHD, just drop the appropriate stream file onto VLC player and take your screen captures.
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Old February 2 2012, 02:01 AM   #152
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Re: The OFFICIAL STNG Next Level Bluray watch and review thread

BillJ wrote: View Post
There's no need to replace it. TNG was a product of the 80's let us see the ingenuity of the 80's in action.
Well they still need to keep things fairly consistent, I think. If they're going to dramatically sharpen and clean up the planets, transporter beams, and other energy effects (which I am eternally grateful for), it only makes sense to improve some of the shakier model effects as well.

Otherwise they're likely to stand out even MORE.
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Old February 2 2012, 02:18 AM   #153
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Re: The OFFICIAL STNG Next Level Bluray watch and review thread

BillJ wrote: View Post
JJohnson wrote: View Post

When the Enterprise fires aft torpedoes, it looks painfully like a model. Here, CG would've been an improvement in mine eyes. I'll finish up the episode tonight. Overall, I have to say I much enjoy the HD over the SD, but I wish they would take a TOS-R view and make improvements when you can to enhance the suspension of disbelief (makeup flaws, FX improvements, CG planets/ships).
Can't disagree more. I want as much of the original episodes to remain intact as possible.
Can't disagree with your disagreement more....
I've already paid for that once, thanks.
Just because they've wiped the figurative vasoline off the lens doesn't justify them charging me for the exact same product again.


I don't know why they couldn't have done what they did with the TOSR DVD, a double disc edition, one DVD with the original cut as we're getting now, in HD for the purists and a second remastered DVD that changes what needs to be changed, more than just the same stock shot 40 times an episode, adding ships, removing mistakes, tarting up the thing so it is doing something worthy of 21st century viewing technology.

On the transporter beam thing, its great that it looks more vivid but I'm surprised they didn't take an FX plate from a later season or something.
You can still see the "beam" particle miss parts of the body, particularly the feet which seemed to be left to their own devices to make their way to the destination of their own accord!

Its something they improved on with every series and I find instances like this, when the writers/producers intent hamstrung by the budgets/technology of the time isn't fixed by the opportunity 21st century technology allows frustrating in the extreme.
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Old February 2 2012, 02:25 AM   #154
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Re: The OFFICIAL STNG Next Level Bluray watch and review thread

davejames wrote: View Post

Well they still need to keep things fairly consistent, I think. If they're going to dramatically sharpen and clean up the planets, transporter beams, and other energy effects (which I am eternally grateful for), it only makes sense to improve some of the shakier model effects as well.

Otherwise they're likely to stand out even MORE.
They're doing that stuff solely because it doesn't exist in a form that will translate to HD. The model work will.

Is this desire to "fix" stuff a Trekkie thing? Are there blu-ray forums filled with people wanting Alien or Total Recall or Tron fixed up? Special Editions don't really seem to fly. The Star Wars fans seem to get that now. ET 2002 won't even be on the new BR disc. When I personally watch a BR movie or see it again in the theater I'm doing it because I want to see what I've been seeing in SD in a sharper form. I don't want to see something new. If I wanted to see something new I'd watch a new movie. Does that make any sense?

2012 effects added to TNG will look as bad as the original stuff in ten years time (if not in ten minutes). If the remasters are eventually going to look bad, shouldn't it be with the original work in it?
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Old February 2 2012, 02:40 AM   #155
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Re: The OFFICIAL STNG Next Level Bluray watch and review thread

I can't get my head around the attitude some people have toward the show in terms of 'replacing this or that' because I've seen it all already. So what? If you don't want to see it again don't buy the HD set. I've seen all the episodes too, but I've never seen them like this and it felt like seeing the show for the first time all over again.

The original effects are beautiful, and they honestly didn't get a chance to truly shine over the last 25 years. Season 3 was the only set I ever bought of the DVD release, so I fired up Sins of the father today and immediately after watched the new HD version. It's like seeing a totally different show.

If someone decides to go and revise all of the effects after all these sets have been released, then so be it, but I want to see the show as it was filmed and in it's original form. No TOSR revisionism thank you. The show is what it is.

If I want to see new effects, I'll find a new show to watch.
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Old February 2 2012, 02:40 AM   #156
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Re: The OFFICIAL STNG Next Level Bluray watch and review thread

Finished EaF and SotF last night. Man, I watched the EaF in my bedroom when I was a kid. It was really enjoyable seeing it again and realized all of the finer points I was oblivious too as a kid.

Man, that episode is clunky as hell, but totally endearing. I honestly enjoyed seeing every scene. Great memories. And it only gets better from here. This makes me wonder, will those not in their 30s get into this and buy it, or will the sales be largely based on nostalgic value for those of us who grew up with it?

Technical stuff:
- I'm fine with the new digital matte in SotF, except for those moving stars. Either make it a static shot or move the ships also. Having one active plane is jarring.

- I never realized how different the lighting was in S1. It's an interesting departure from what we saw in the later seasons. Again, good stuff.

- You can definitely tell the E-D is a model in some of the flybys, due to irregular window shapes and the paint job, but it's fine. It only pulls it out if you want it to. If you turn off the critical part of your brain, it's beautiful.

- They definitely improved the sound design in the later seasons, as the 'soundstage-ness' disappears compared to EaF.

I'm on the fence regarding the use of CG vs. original elements. I appreciate the original effects, but I've grown up in 25 years and am slightly spoiled by the higher quality we see in this age. I can't say I'd be disappointed to see some of the shots replaced with CG if done tastefully. I haven't seen the CG ship in Inner Light yet.

Can't wait for season 1.
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Old February 2 2012, 02:55 AM   #157
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Re: The OFFICIAL STNG Next Level Bluray watch and review thread

DostoyevskyClone wrote: View Post
This new release of EaF has got me rethinking my position on the first season (which I thought was painfully mediocre at times) - it definitely has a new look and feel now with this remaster. The story obviously hasn't changed (and I just watched EaF a couple of weeks ago in fact), but I found myself enjoying the pilot so much more watching it in Blu-ray. I wonder how much of it is novelty factor? Will we all still feel as impressed on the 16th, 17th, and 18th episodes of season one?
Considering the fact that the 16th, 17th, and 18th episodes are "Too Short A Season", "When The Bough Breaks" and "Home Soil" respectively, I wouldn't be surprised if your renewed enthusiasm for the season might be challenged around this point!

But yeah, I agree with you completely about Encounter At Farpoint-- all it's flaws are still there (bizarre pacing, lame dialogue, cringe-inducing acting) but somehow this new version is the absolute highlight of the sampler disc, and has me incredibly excited for the full season set.
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Old February 2 2012, 03:16 AM   #158
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Re: The OFFICIAL STNG Next Level Bluray watch and review thread

The Gentleman wrote: View Post
Considering the fact that the 16th, 17th, and 18th episodes are "Too Short A Season", "When The Bough Breaks" and "Home Soil" respectively, I wouldn't be surprised if your renewed enthusiasm for the season might be challenged around this point!
Those are some of the strongest episodes of that season along with "Symbiosis" and "Heart of Glory" which are in that range as well.

The first season of TNG is one of the worst looking, as far as the level of video blur and artifacts. It practically looks YouTube quality. That can detract from any viewing experience. I think S01 will be legitimately more enjoyable for the long haul.
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Old February 2 2012, 03:27 AM   #159
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Re: The OFFICIAL STNG Next Level Bluray watch and review thread

NewHorizon wrote: View Post
I can't get my head around the attitude some people have toward the show in terms of 'replacing this or that' because I've seen it all already. So what? If you don't want to see it again don't buy the HD set. I've seen all the episodes too, but I've never seen them like this and it felt like seeing the show for the first time all over again.

The original effects are beautiful, and they honestly didn't get a chance to truly shine over the last 25 years. Season 3 was the only set I ever bought of the DVD release, so I fired up Sins of the father today and immediately after watched the new HD version. It's like seeing a totally different show.

If someone decides to go and revise all of the effects after all these sets have been released, then so be it, but I want to see the show as it was filmed and in it's original form. No TOSR revisionism thank you. The show is what it is.

If I want to see new effects, I'll find a new show to watch.
Star Trek, a show about humanity exploring strange new worlds and civilisations, the quest to explore something new.

It turns out its fans don't want anything new at all, just the same worlds and civilisations with a bit of polish, neatly packaged.

I don't doubt once all the spinoff series are out then the producers will set to work with a proper (whatever the format by then) CGI (whatever the resolution by that time ) remastering in another attempt to get us to pay a lot of money for the same thing.

My point was I don't see why they didn't do a remastering release in the same way they did with the improved TOS release, you would still get exactly what you're getting now but those who do want something new for their money will get what they want too and CBS will get more sales out of it in the long run.

They'll do it eventually, mark my words, but it won't be a great artistic endeavour just as this isn't a great restoration endeavour, its just yet another way for them to get your money into their pockets, for which they'll do the bare minimum possible.

The not wanting to see anything new smacks of old people being typically hesitant towards change, particularly when a lot of the time what you want to preserve is errors and budget/time constraints getting in the way of the producers and writers TRUE intentions.
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Old February 2 2012, 03:45 AM   #160
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Re: The OFFICIAL STNG Next Level Bluray watch and review thread

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They're doing that stuff solely because it doesn't exist in a form that will translate to HD. The model work will.

Is this desire to "fix" stuff a Trekkie thing? Are there blu-ray forums filled with people wanting Alien or Total Recall or Tron fixed up? Special Editions don't really seem to fly. The Star Wars fans seem to get that now. ET 2002 won't even be on the new BR disc. When I personally watch a BR movie or see it again in the theater I'm doing it because I want to see what I've been seeing in SD in a sharper form. I don't want to see something new. If I wanted to see something new I'd watch a new movie. Does that make any sense?

2012 effects added to TNG will look as bad as the original stuff in ten years time (if not in ten minutes). If the remasters are eventually going to look bad, shouldn't it be with the original work in it?
Well they've already replaced a few model shots (like during the saucer sep), and most people seem to love the new planets, transporter beams, LCARs, and other little touches.

Are you saying you really want to see the original, heavily pixelated versions of THOSE effects superimposed over this pristine new footage we're seeing? Those would stand out like a sore thumb, and look frankly ridiculous.

While I did think some of the new TOS-R shots got a little too flashy and sophisticated, I have no problem with updating some of the more badly outdated effects-- mainly because A) They're only effects, and B) I'm much more interested in seeing the story told as well as possible.
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Old February 2 2012, 03:45 AM   #161
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Re: The OFFICIAL STNG Next Level Bluray watch and review thread

Dick_Valentine wrote: View Post
NewHorizon wrote: View Post
I can't get my head around the attitude some people have toward the show in terms of 'replacing this or that' because I've seen it all already. So what? If you don't want to see it again don't buy the HD set. I've seen all the episodes too, but I've never seen them like this and it felt like seeing the show for the first time all over again.

The original effects are beautiful, and they honestly didn't get a chance to truly shine over the last 25 years. Season 3 was the only set I ever bought of the DVD release, so I fired up Sins of the father today and immediately after watched the new HD version. It's like seeing a totally different show.

If someone decides to go and revise all of the effects after all these sets have been released, then so be it, but I want to see the show as it was filmed and in it's original form. No TOSR revisionism thank you. The show is what it is.

If I want to see new effects, I'll find a new show to watch.
Star Trek, a show about humanity exploring strange new worlds and civilisations, the quest to explore something new.

It turns out its fans don't want anything new at all, just the same worlds and civilisations with a bit of polish, neatly packaged.

I don't doubt once all the spinoff series are out then the producers will set to work with a proper (whatever the format by then) CGI (whatever the resolution by that time ) remastering in another attempt to get us to pay a lot of money for the same thing.

My point was I don't see why they didn't do a remastering release in the same way they did with the improved TOS release, you would still get exactly what you're getting now but those who do want something new for their money will get what they want too and CBS will get more sales out of it in the long run.

They'll do it eventually, mark my words, but it won't be a great artistic endeavour just as this isn't a great restoration endeavour, its just yet another way for them to get your money into their pockets, for which they'll do the bare minimum possible.

The not wanting to see anything new smacks of old people being typically hesitant towards change, particularly when a lot of the time what you want to preserve is errors and budget/time constraints getting in the way of the producers and writers TRUE intentions.
The proposed project YOU are talking about would cost twice as much or more to produce. The only reason they did TOS-R that way was because the classic vfx negatives didn't hold up to the HD transfer, and they didn't have the uncomposited masters.

Sorry but those are the facts. Would I like some new fx shots in TNG-R.... YES.... will there be some.... YES.
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Old February 2 2012, 03:57 AM   #162
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Re: The OFFICIAL STNG Next Level Bluray watch and review thread

davejames wrote: View Post
Are you saying you really want to see the original, heavily pixelated versions of THOSE effects superimposed over this pristine new footage we're seeing? Those would stand out like a sore thumb, and look frankly ridiculous.
This, Ladies and Gents, is what it looks like when someone misrepresents what your saying to make whatever point they feel like. Look and learn.

Dick_Valentine wrote:
It turns out its fans don't want anything new at all, just the same worlds and civilisations with a bit of polish, neatly packaged.
This is a really weird argument. Why not then change the costumes? The actors? Redesign the ship if you want something new? Write new scripts? At this point why don't you just make a new show?

I like new stuff. I watch new series all the time. But when I want to watch TNG I want to watch TNG, just like I want to watch any other movie I've already seen.
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Old February 2 2012, 04:28 AM   #163
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Re: The OFFICIAL STNG Next Level Bluray watch and review thread

I just watched "The Inner Light" and some of you must be watching this BD on an old console TV hooked up to your BD-Player through those old screw-in type connectors. I so no problems with the film-grain in this episode it looked perfect. Hell it almost looked too clear and perfect as the old-age makeup and appliances on Patrick Stewart didn't hold up very well to the high resolution.
I'm watching mine on a Samsung 51" Plasma with a Panasonic Blu-ray Player that are both less than 6 months old and both have the latest firmware. The two devices are connected with a v1.4 certified HDMI cable.

I also tested it on my PC, which has a Core i7 Processor, an ATI 5970 card hooked up to an LG 23" LCD via DVI cable, and an LG Blu-ray burner with the latest firmware.
I notice the same thing on the PC as well. It's clearly the film transfer, because in special FX scenes there is zero grain, and it's actually quite jarring to switch between the two.
Surprisingly, Encounter at Farpoint is the episode that suffers the least from this problem.
I also wanted to mention how incredibly lucky we are that CBS is doing this project, not many tv shows get this treatment. I am going to try to locate the perfect person at CBS to direct THANK YOU emails to, and I think we should make our appreciation known.
Even if it's not exactly what I was hoping for, I'll take what I can get
Can't disagree with your disagreement more....
I've already paid for that once, thanks.
Just because they've wiped the figurative vasoline off the lens doesn't justify them charging me for the exact same product again.

I don't know why they couldn't have done what they did with the TOSR DVD, a double disc edition, one DVD with the original cut as we're getting now, in HD for the purists and a second remastered DVD that changes what needs to be changed, more than just the same stock shot 40 times an episode, adding ships, removing mistakes, tarting up the thing so it is doing something worthy of 21st century viewing technology.
That would have worked for me beautifully. I wanted to see what the writers/producers intended, NOT the same old shots that were done on a limited budget, but redone in HD.
This reminds me of some of those older games (like Halo) that were never meant to be played at 1920x1080, but with hacked ini files you can force it. While it improves the jaggies a little, it's still easy to tell how the low res textures are being stretched to the higher resolution, and still looks dated. This is somewhat the feeling I get when watching these remastered episodes.
Is this desire to "fix" stuff a Trekkie thing? Are there blu-ray forums filled with people wanting Alien or Total Recall or Tron fixed up? Special Editions don't really seem to fly. The Star Wars fans seem to get that now. ET 2002 won't even be on the new BR disc. When I personally watch a BR movie or see it again in the theater I'm doing it because I want to see what I've been seeing in SD in a sharper form. I don't want to see something new. If I wanted to see something new I'd watch a new movie. Does that make any sense?
I don't get this line of thinking. If there is nothing to "fix" then why bother? Most people can watch their DVD's upscaled and be happy. I was showing my dad the different in quality of my EaF episode on my old DVD's as compared to the new remastered one. While the first impression we both got was how much crisper it looked, after the first 15-20 mins it wears out, and doesn't seem like a huge reason to spend $100+ for season sets that we already have. We have the TOS HD because we never bought the originals before, only knew them from watching them on TV, and there is SO much changed in them that the purchase was totally worth it. I'm not so sure about TNG if I base it on what I've seen here in these episodes.
Star Trek, a show about humanity exploring strange new worlds and civilisations, the quest to explore something new.
It turns out its fans don't want anything new at all, just the same worlds and civilisations with a bit of polish, neatly packaged.
I don't doubt once all the spinoff series are out then the producers will set to work with a proper (whatever the format by then) CGI (whatever the resolution by that time ) remastering in another attempt to get us to pay a lot of money for the same thing.
My point was I don't see why they didn't do a remastering release in the same way they did with the improved TOS release, you would still get exactly what you're getting now but those who do want something new for their money will get what they want too and CBS will get more sales out of it in the long run.
They'll do it eventually, mark my words, but it won't be a great artistic endeavour just as this isn't a great restoration endeavour, its just yet another way for them to get your money into their pockets, for which they'll do the bare minimum possible.
This is unfortunately the feeling I'm getting as well. They went ahead and CGI enhanced the Jellyfish, and the particle beams, and practically every effect. Why could they give us a little more where the scene just doesn't work as well. It doesn't have to be every episode either, just the ones where they *clearly* wanted to do an action shot but the budget didn't allow it.
I seriously hope Yesterday's Enterprise isn't the same awful static shot of the Enterprise firing one phaser beam at the Klingons. I hope they do a bit more. I hope redemption shows more than 3 of the 30 ships heading off to the blockade. But I get the feeling this is exactly what's going to happen
This is a really weird argument. Why not then change the costumes? The actors? Redesign the ship if you want something new? Write new scripts? At this point why don't you just make a new show?
I like new stuff. I watch new series all the time. But when I want to watch TNG I want to watch TNG, just like I want to watch any other movie I've already seen.
All I want to see is what the original team originally intended but was unable to show because of budget reasons. I'm sure in Tin Man, the explosion of the Romulan ship was meant to look far more impacting than what basically looks like a 2ft model being blown up (the quivering of the ship always makes me laugh because it looks like it's taking a shit and struggling for it to come out). I'm sure the "evasive maneuvers" in The Survivors were meant to be more elaborate than the ship slowly doing a 180. Etc etc.
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Old February 2 2012, 04:38 AM   #164
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Re: The OFFICIAL STNG Next Level Bluray watch and review thread

Dick_Valentine wrote: View Post

Star Trek, a show about humanity exploring strange new worlds and civilisations, the quest to explore something new.

It turns out its fans don't want anything new at all, just the same worlds and civilisations with a bit of polish, neatly packaged.
That's kind of the point of restoring the show from the original negatives.

New worlds and civilizations? I would love to see that...so they should make a new show. Maybe they should re-edit the episodes, dub over the lines and change the stories too so we're not bored?

Plenty of that going around already:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xfCK...layer_embedded

I'm interested in the show being restored, not hotrodded.

My point was I don't see why they didn't do a remastering release in the same way they did with the improved TOS release, you would still get exactly what you're getting now but those who do want something new for their money will get what they want too and CBS will get more sales out of it in the long run.
...and, it has been pointed out many times already, the process for TOS:R was vastly different to what is being done for TNG:HD.

The TOS episodes were "finished" edits. NO 'raw' effects elements existed. The original effects elements for TOS were long lost. All they could do was scan the finished edit and try to clean it up slightly. Since the same film shots were used over and over in TOS, eventually the shots were in such bad shape that by the end of the series they were scratched to heck. There was no way they could use those for HD. They had no choice but to CGI the entire run of effects. If the non-composited effects had existed, they could have done the exact same thing they're doing now. Scan all of the raw elements, recomposit them with modern compositing techniques and use modern software to enhance the lighting...etc. They could even have replaced the old planets with nicer looking ones like they're doing with TNG....but, we would have had the original model work...only better.

TNG:HD is a different matter. The finished edits of each episode only exist on low resolution video tape. So, they have to drag all of the film canisters up from the salt mine storage facility. Scan the negatives, re-cut EVERY episode to match how they were edited 25 years ago. Loop all of the dialogue and music, then finally recomposit the filmed visual elements and finally re-create any of the effects that were CGI. Essentially, the show is in post production again 25 years later. To expect them to create both a CGI enhanced version on top of what they're already doing is pretty unrealistic. If they were to CGI everything as you would like them to do, then all they would have the resources to give us would be a seamless branch to the original effects, upconverted from the old video tapes, and that would look like ass. They have a group of 20 people split into 3 teams working 8 hour shifts around the clock to get two seasons finished a year. It's a huge effort.

The not wanting to see anything new smacks of old people being typically hesitant towards change, particularly when a lot of the time what you want to preserve is errors and budget/time constraints getting in the way of the producers and writers TRUE intentions.
Well, that's pretty insulting to me personally and completely untrue.

I embrace change when and where it matters most. I simply don't have any interest in replacing the effects in a 25 year old television show, especially when the original film negatives exist and can be recomposited to look better than they ever could have 25 years ago.
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Old February 2 2012, 04:42 AM   #165
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Re: The OFFICIAL STNG Next Level Bluray watch and review thread

...and, it has been pointed out many times already, the process for TOS:R was vastly different to what is being done for TNG:HD.
TOS-R was hotrodded.
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