RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 135,743
Posts: 5,215,798
Members: 24,214
Currently online: 751
Newest member: davidm

TrekToday headlines

Q Meets NuTrek Crew
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18

Pine In Talks For Drama
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18

New X-Men: Days of Future Past Trailer
By: T'Bonz on Apr 17

Nimoy to Receive Award
By: T'Bonz on Apr 17

Star Trek Special: Flesh and Stone Comic
By: T'Bonz on Apr 16

These Are The Voyages TOS Season Two Book Review
By: T'Bonz on Apr 16

Kirk’s Well Wishes To Kirk
By: T'Bonz on Apr 15

Quinto In New Starz Series
By: T'Bonz on Apr 15

Star Trek: Horizon Film
By: T'Bonz on Apr 14

Star Trek: Fleet Captains Game Expansion
By: T'Bonz on Apr 14


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old January 30 2012, 03:34 PM   #136
siskokid888
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Either Quark's, or a bar on St. Mark's Place
Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

^That all may be true, but it doesn't answer the question of why the Federation just doesnt share the tech with the Iotians. As stated, the Prime Directive no longer applies, so why keep it away?
__________________
"Enterprise, starship, the places you've been to, the things that you've shown us, the stories you tell, Enterprise, starship we sing to your spirit and the beings that have served you so long and so well"
siskokid888 is offline  
Old January 30 2012, 05:46 PM   #137
Warped9
Admiral
 
Warped9's Avatar
 
Location: Brockville, Ontario, Canada
Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

siskokid888 wrote: View Post
^That all may be true, but it doesn't answer the question of why the Federation just doesnt share the tech with the Iotians. As stated, the Prime Directive no longer applies, so why keep it away?
I think there might well be nuances and contingencies in the Prime Directive. There'd have to be. Seriously, you can't just hand a load of advanced tech to backwards cultures and hope for the best. Look at our own world.

The Iotians are presently a group of peoples with a corrupt gangster mentality who would really need to be educated before they could deal with advanced technology. Look at how in our own history new tech often isn't used for it's intended purpose but has been corrupted into something wrongly used.

Part of the problem with a planet-of-the-week type story is that the featured culture is only sketched out in broad strokes. The episode references the Iotians as being highly imitative, but that doesn't really say much. Humans are highly imitative in that we, too, mimic or adapt things we see that impress us in some way or other. But that is hardly all that we are. In a more credibly scenario some Iotians would/might imitate some aspects of the gangster era as portrayed in the book left behind by the Horizon. But it's highly unlikey that the entire society would imitate everything related in the book. Add to that the book naturally doesn't tell everything about 1920's America.

Or put it another way: would you hand 23rd century tech, or even 21st, to the likes of Al Capones with the mentalities of that era? I wouldn't
__________________
STAR TREK: 1964-1991
Warped9 is offline  
Old January 30 2012, 11:08 PM   #138
Captain Tracy
Commander
 
Captain Tracy's Avatar
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

SISKO - Alright, I am ready for you to throw your next "What would you do?' TREK hypothesis at me,... and none of that 'slow-pitch' stuff either LOL!

C'mon now,.. stop stalling, it is your turn.
__________________
"FREE YOUR MIND, AND YOUR BUTT WILL FOLLOW" - RICHARD PRYOR
Captain Tracy is offline  
Old February 1 2012, 04:00 PM   #139
siskokid888
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Either Quark's, or a bar on St. Mark's Place
Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

OK, Ron, you asked for it - our beloved Star Trek. Starting with TOS and going through all its incarnations - does it simply present and uphold the white male american viewpoint? The Federation and Starfleet - organizations with imperial overtones that seem to always be on the side of "right" - and using military force when those "values" are conflicted with. Can we subsitute "America" for "Federation"? Kirk seems to represent the quitessential american ideal - tough, quick to anger, ready to use violence, acting off the cuff and making snap decisions based on what he defines as "right", and, oh yes, white. So my question is, is the Trek we all worship just a further example of American propaganda in science fiction form? Or does it have redeeming qualities? Have at it.
__________________
"Enterprise, starship, the places you've been to, the things that you've shown us, the stories you tell, Enterprise, starship we sing to your spirit and the beings that have served you so long and so well"
siskokid888 is offline  
Old February 2 2012, 02:52 AM   #140
Captain Tracy
Commander
 
Captain Tracy's Avatar
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

SISKO - It's a great question; and the answer - by my way of thinking is - BOTH.

The underlining and overshadowing tone of the show is most obviously: 1966 White-Male dominanted socio/politico, imperialist/ expansionist, American big-business - projected into a 23rd century backdrop.

However - the individual writers were able to adroitly weave into the overriding tone of the show - and the often ham-handed,'Truth, Justice, and the American Way Roddenberry rhetoric - subtle and compelling social, moral, and humanitarian issues and statements, which, in their best handling, caused us to examine our own philosophies and views.
__________________
"FREE YOUR MIND, AND YOUR BUTT WILL FOLLOW" - RICHARD PRYOR
Captain Tracy is offline  
Old February 3 2012, 03:25 PM   #141
siskokid888
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Either Quark's, or a bar on St. Mark's Place
Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

^Well said. But, are those subtle shadings enough for Trek fans' claims that it is a "groundbreaking" show in the medium of television? And have the later incarnations done enough to truly break it out of the "american culture" mode? My answer, on the surface, is no. DS9 played with it, but even in that show, military force became the way to extend the "correct" culture of the Federation. Can a form of entertainment meet this criteria at all? Are there successful examples?
__________________
"Enterprise, starship, the places you've been to, the things that you've shown us, the stories you tell, Enterprise, starship we sing to your spirit and the beings that have served you so long and so well"
siskokid888 is offline  
Old February 3 2012, 08:25 PM   #142
Captain Tracy
Commander
 
Captain Tracy's Avatar
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Well it all depends on exactly what ground is being cited as being 'broken'. Obviously, TOS made massive in-roads in special effects, set design, wardrobe, etc; for TV of its time - and many will cite the promotion of 'minority races', and the pushing of the cultural envelope by Broadcast Standards of the day.

so like many things, the answer lay in how you are looking at the series.

As far as these 'Other TREKs' are concerned, I know nothing about them, as I have barely seen any of the TNG episodes, I have never seen any of the others, and hardly any of the movies - my lexicon of TREK is all about STAR TREK the original series, so I can't speak on any of them.

Let me know when you are ready 'Captain Sisko', as I have a real 'doosie' cooked up for you to gnaw on this time LOL!
__________________
"FREE YOUR MIND, AND YOUR BUTT WILL FOLLOW" - RICHARD PRYOR
Captain Tracy is offline  
Old February 6 2012, 03:34 PM   #143
siskokid888
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Either Quark's, or a bar on St. Mark's Place
Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

OK, Ron, let me have it!
__________________
"Enterprise, starship, the places you've been to, the things that you've shown us, the stories you tell, Enterprise, starship we sing to your spirit and the beings that have served you so long and so well"
siskokid888 is offline  
Old February 6 2012, 10:06 PM   #144
Captain Tracy
Commander
 
Captain Tracy's Avatar
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

SISKO - You and your Chief Medical Officer are on a mission to secure the mining rights of the rare mineral,Topaline, which has been found in abundance on the planet Cappella IV.

This scarce mineral is of vital importance to the life support system of Federation planetoid colonies. To make matters more difficult, a Klingon agent has preceded you to the Capellan negotiation table; and the Cappellans are emphatic that they will only create a Mining Treaty with one faction only.

During the course of your interactions planet-side, the good Doctor, the very pregnant Eleen - who carries within her, the unborn heir-apparent Teer - and yourself, have escaped Maab's bloddy coup; and have fled into the caves of the surrounding mountains.

However, while being guided by Eleen through the network of small tunnels which will lead your party to the safety of other side of the mountain, a cave-in occurs, trapping Elaan in the mouth of the cave's exit,... although her head and shoulders are on the outside of the mouth of the cave, the rest of her body is completely trapped on your side of the rubble,... and blocking the exit.

While no one - including the unborn infant which Eleen carries - is seriously injured; however, the tunnel has been completely and totally sealed off behind you by hundred of yards of dense rubble.

Additionally, fissures created in the floor of the cave are expelling a deadly volcanic gas, which will completely fill the small tunnel segment in a matter of moments which is occupied by yourself and the Doctor - who are trapped between the collapsed tunnel, and the trapped Elaan, who's head is out of the cave.

In a matter of moments, death will envelope you and the Doctor, unless Eleen can be 'unstuck' from blocking your escape.

Although you have your communicator, the Enterprise (and the transporter with it) have been called away from orbiting the planet in an effort to aid the distressed USS Dierdre - a small freighter, reported under attack by a Klingon vessel,... a crafty ruse by the cunning Klingon, Kras.

You also have your Phaser; however there is too much rubble sealing off the tunnel behind you, as well as that which traps Eleen - which would be far too dangerous and time consuming to consider phasering your way through.

Besides, your Phaser's power-cell only contains enough of a remaining charge for 'one shot'.

Okay CAPTAIN SISKO,... the deadly poison gas is filling the cave,... you only have seconds,... what do you do?

CUE: 'Danger Music'
__________________
"FREE YOUR MIND, AND YOUR BUTT WILL FOLLOW" - RICHARD PRYOR

Last edited by Captain Tracy; February 7 2012 at 07:41 AM.
Captain Tracy is offline  
Old February 8 2012, 12:38 AM   #145
Gary7
Rear Admiral
 
Gary7's Avatar
 
Location: Near Manhattan ··· in an alternate reality
Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

^ Kobayashi Maru. You've put together a pretty wild and wacky rare scenario there.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

In Stargate Universe, a dying Senator sacrificed his life to save the others, by manually activating the closure of the shuttle doors from inside (it couldn't be done from the outside). If nobody had done this, everyone would have died with the entire ship's atmosphere vented.

Eleen is stuck in the only way out, oxygen is going, and everybody in the tunnel is going to die unless she gets unstuck. The right thing would be to clearly state the facts and ask her kindly to sacrifice herself. She'd be dying anyway, what with massive internal injuries. If she was an upstanding person, she'd say "shoot me". And, the captain would have to do it. If she declined, and remained selfish to not only die but take a few other people with her, the proper thing would be to knock her unconscious, then use the phaser to widen the hole (and kill her).
__________________
Remembering Ensign Mallory.
Gary7 is offline  
Old February 8 2012, 02:06 AM   #146
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

I take it that "phasering" Eileen will result in a opening through which Kirk and McCoy can escape? But would Eileen and child die in any event through injuries and/or starvation subsequent to Kirk and McCoy's demise? Or would she clearly have the ability to free herself and child, perhaps after regaining consciousness?

If she and child were doomed to death, I would say disintegrate them both, at least accomplishing the salvation of two of the four people involved in the cave in. However, it would be incumbent upon Kirk and McCoy (as gentlemen) to sacrifice themselves, so as that mother and child could survive, to lead their world to a future of diversity, freedom and democracy.

It would make no sense for all four to die.

T'Girl is online now  
Old February 8 2012, 05:09 AM   #147
Captain Tracy
Commander
 
Captain Tracy's Avatar
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

GARY7 & T'GIRL - While we wait for SISKO, my ever-delinquent buddy, to re-surface, I'll take a moment to make some clarifications while we wait for his answer as what he will do.

GARY7 - While it is true that Eleen blocks the only way out of the tunnel, however, it is not true that 'oxygen is running out'; what is true is that poisonous volcanic gas is rapidly filling the cave - making what oxygen that remains in the cave totally unbreathable,... which means no one can talk; as you must breath to talk,.. and breathing in the gas means instant death,.. so there is no politely asking Eleen if it is okay to phaser her and her unborn child to death.

However, I will award you with +3 points for 'Officer Courtesy' when murdering innocent pregnant women. LOL!

Also, no one sustained any 'massive internal injuries' as the hypothesis states in paragraph 5: While no one - including the unborn infant which Eleen carries - is seriously injured,... so Eleen would not 'be dying anyway'.

Furthermore, the hypothesis states: there are only seconds remaining before Captain Sisko and his Chief Medical Officer are enveloped by death,... so there is NO TIME to administer a Hypo to her lower body, knock her out, and then try to conduct a mining operation to 'widen the hole around her' with the Phaser - a Phaser which only has ONE SHOT remaining, besides.

Sisko and his Medical Officer would be dead about the same time they determined the hypo took effect,.. and "Fried Eleen over super-heated Rock" probably would be more noxious to breath in than the deadly volcanic gas,... one might assume LOL!

Keep pondering old bean!

T'GIRL - Yes, as the hypothesis states, Eleen blocks the only exit from the cave,.. ergo, remove the 'blockage' and the cave exit becomes unblocked, and therefore 'open'.

All of your suppositions are quite valid and intelligent in there formation, HOWEVER, in these scenarios, there is NO TIME for thought,.. only ACTION,... by answering 'What Do You Do", and not 'What do you 'think'.

Also, all of your 'IF' statements, would by-in-large only answerable AFTER THE FACT of taking immediate and irreversible action first.

+3 bonus points for being 'the deepest thinking two dead officers on the cave floor'. LOL!
__________________
"FREE YOUR MIND, AND YOUR BUTT WILL FOLLOW" - RICHARD PRYOR

Last edited by Captain Tracy; February 8 2012 at 05:44 AM.
Captain Tracy is offline  
Old February 8 2012, 03:51 PM   #148
siskokid888
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Either Quark's, or a bar on St. Mark's Place
Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Hell of a scenario, Tracy. IIRC, Eleen and her child were going to be executed by Maab until Kirk and McCoy (and Spock, I think) escape with her. In fact, Maab ends up sacrificing himself in her place at the end. So, if Kirk (or I) and the Doctor die, Eleen and her kid are dead anyway, either from, as previously stated, the situation she is in, or from Maab, after he finds her. To sacrifice my life for someone who is dead anyway is not really a sacrifice, its a waste. I go with Gary7's scenario - try to talk reason to her, render her unconcious, try to get out with out hurting her, but if she dies, so be it. She is dead in any case. Ship commanders get paid to make life or death decisions, and this is one of them. Tough call, but that's what I would do.
__________________
"Enterprise, starship, the places you've been to, the things that you've shown us, the stories you tell, Enterprise, starship we sing to your spirit and the beings that have served you so long and so well"
siskokid888 is offline  
Old February 8 2012, 07:13 PM   #149
Captain Tracy
Commander
 
Captain Tracy's Avatar
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

SISKO - Please RE-READ both the scenario and the response to GARY7,.. IF YOU TRY TO TALK TO ELAAN, YOU WILL BREATH IN THE GAS AND DIE INSTANTLY. And NO ONE IS SERIOUSLY INJURED, simply trapped in the rubble.

Also, as you know there can be no 'IF''s in your response,.. you must state - as a course of action - only that which you do, with the mere seconds (like 5) that you have remaining before you (where the hell did Kirk, McCoy,... and Spock no less,.. come from?????) and your Chief Medical Officer are 'enveloped by death.

So,.. again, NO SQUIRMING OR HEDGING SISKO,.. or "if, then' nonsense,... please state only, and in clear and simple terms only, the immediate course of ACTION you take.

::INSERT WICKED LAUGHTER :::

"NOW ANSWER CAPTAIN !!!"
__________________
"FREE YOUR MIND, AND YOUR BUTT WILL FOLLOW" - RICHARD PRYOR

Last edited by Captain Tracy; February 8 2012 at 10:59 PM.
Captain Tracy is offline  
Old February 13 2012, 03:42 PM   #150
siskokid888
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Either Quark's, or a bar on St. Mark's Place
Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

^Very well - the "gotta be done right now" scenario doesn't change my decision. The facts I point out still stand - she dies. Sounds cold, I know, but if I die, she dies anyway. There was a similar situation examined in TNG - Troi is taking a test to become a full commander. In the scenario, the ship is about to be destroyed due to a malfunction. LaForge could save the ship at the cost of his life. Troi doesn't pass the test untill she orders LaForge to repair the ship and sacrifice himself. So sometimes a commander has to make decisions like that, and they are messy. Given your scenario, the choice is clear - she dies.
__________________
"Enterprise, starship, the places you've been to, the things that you've shown us, the stories you tell, Enterprise, starship we sing to your spirit and the beings that have served you so long and so well"
siskokid888 is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:01 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.