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Old January 26 2012, 10:18 AM   #421
The Green Mushroom
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Hyperspace05 wrote: View Post
The massive world building/history on display in Tyrion's journey is my favorite kind of fantasy writing. Really excellent stuff. And the Valyrian history is so interesting - I'm sure GRRM will reveal more in the last two books.
I like world building as well, sometimes even more than the actual plot of the book. As a random example, I just picked up On Basilisk Station and definitely liked the sections explaining society better than most of the plot--although the patrol ship in space plotline did have its merits for me. I also am a fan of 'For Want of a Nail" which is written as a history book from a world where England put down the American Revolution. There is no plot there, it is all world building.

I also chewed through a Dance With Dragons in two or three days at most. It only took me that long when because real world forced me to put it down once or twice and because I knew that once I finished it I would have to wait a while before any more of the series came out.

That being said, Martin's world building is now coming at the expense of the plot. I got into this series when I heard it described as "The War of the Roses" with the serial numbers filed off. Then it got better. Then the plot stopped for some reason.

I don't really care about 400 pages of world building when those 400 pages stretch out what should have been five chapters. I was able to forgive AFFC because it was essentially the backstory of the second trilogy, at least in the original plan, for not having a plot. Now that Dragons doesn't have a plot I have grave doubts about this series.

Personally I am looking forward to TWOW and hope that it basically sets off a hard run of two or three books as tighly plotted as the first three to end the series. But I am afraid that world building will again get in the way.
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Old January 26 2012, 01:57 PM   #422
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Well, didn't Martin say that ADWD is just supposed to be the second part of AFFC and he split them in two because he realized the single volume was just too long? ADWD is mainly supposed to just explain what happened to other POV characters that weren't featured in AFFC, so this book is just as much set-up as AFFC was.
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Old January 26 2012, 09:32 PM   #423
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Anwar wrote: View Post
Well, didn't Martin say that ADWD is just supposed to be the second part of AFFC and he split them in two because he realized the single volume was just too long? ADWD is mainly supposed to just explain what happened to other POV characters that weren't featured in AFFC, so this book is just as much set-up as AFFC was.
True and I really do hope that is how it turns out.
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Old January 26 2012, 09:56 PM   #424
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Yeah, what happened was that Martin originally planned for there to be a five-year jump between book three and book four, but he found that impractical as he began writing it because it involved too many flashbacks. So he started writing what was essentially a bridging book, which ended up being split into two bridging books because there was so much material (though the span of years ended up not being nearly as long; there's a Littlefinger line in Feast about how he was planning to have four or five years before Cersei had finished unravelling the realm to lay his plans that seems like metacommentary).
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Old January 27 2012, 07:00 AM   #425
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

The Green Mushroom wrote: View Post
I also am a fan of 'For Want of a Nail" which is written as a history book from a world where England put down the American Revolution. There is no plot there, it is all world building.
Sounds interesting... ever read Wells' Things to Come? The book is also done as a history of the future.
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Old January 29 2012, 08:06 PM   #426
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Well, I just finished A Dance with Dragons yesterday so I'm finally all caught up.

I had bought A Game of Thrones years ago but I had never gotten around to reading it. I was excited though when I heard HBO was making it into a series. I really loved the show and it quickly became my favorite. Although I wish I had read the books sooner, I was kind of glad I didn't. Not just because of the long wait between books but because Ned's death was one of the most shocking things I saw on televison.

After finishing The Hunger Games, I started to read the entire series. It was definitely a long, hard read (especially for a slow and OCD reader like myself) but it was totally worth it. I loved the series and I'm going to miss not having a new book to read for who knows how long. Thankfully Season 2 is only two months away.

Martin is a cruel writer and I mean that in a good way. Just when you think something good is going to happen or that characters will finally get their long-awaited reunion (Arya trying to reach her mother at The Red Wedding), Martin yanks is all away from you (and especially the characters). You're getting the feeling that a Stark family reunion is getting more and more unlikely. The deaths in ASOFAI feel logical to the story, unlike so many of the deaths on televison nowadays. Characters make bad decisions and they pay for it in the worst possible way. If you are an honorable person in Westeros, you are not going to survive. You have to be a bit of a bastard.

I definitely agree with the consenus that the first three books were definitely the best. It built a strong, tight, and exciting storyline. If HBO decides to end the series before Martin finishes the series, A Storm of Swords wouldn't be a bad one to end on. It wraps up several storylines and gives new futures to some of the characters. With the deaths of key Starks and Lannisters, the teeth go out of that rivalry as well.

I'm very new to GOT's fandom but judging by the Amazon average reviews for AFFC and ADWD, I can see they were nowhere near as popular as the first three book. I enjoyed both of them though. I was surprised that Jaime became one of my favorite characters, as his own transformation becomes fascinating and compelling to read. I was impressed with Nikolaj Coster-Waldau performance on the show and thought that behind Peter Dinklage, he was the breakout actor on the show. Reading the books made me even more impressed with his performance because he inhabited the role so perfectly. Also really loved the scene with him and his Aunt Genna in AFFC.

It took me a little while to get into A Dance with Dragons. Seeing Tyrion out of his usual environment took some getting used to but the character as always is a joy to read. His discovery that Young Griff was Aegon was a nice surprise and I found myself enjoying his "relationship" with Penny. Though his storyline here (with seems to be showing how he gets from Point A to Point B) is nowhere near as intriguing as his storylines in the first three books.

Events in Westeros are definitely more compelling than events across the Narrow Sea. I loved the stuff in The North as well. Theon's storyline took my by surprise. With his unlikeable personality, his betrayel of the Starks, and what he did to those two children, he deserved the punishment he got. But damn, even I felt bad for the brutality he received as the hands of Ramsay. The character was broken in a way that felt very real and logical to me. Seeing him attempting to regain his identity while showing some heroics at the end was easily one of, if not the best storyline in the book.

If there was one problem I had with ADWD's is that it felt like it was spending its time setting up the next book. Like I brought up, Tyrion's storyline felt like it was just taking him from point a to point b. Daenerays time in Meereen was making me wish she would just return to Westeros with her dragons. Davos discovers where one of Ned's children went and we don't see him again. Same with Bran after the first chapter of his training. Then there was Jon. I liked his storyline a great deal and seeing what he was doing with the Night's Watch. He had the right of it, trying to end thousands of years of conflict with the Wildings to fight a greater enemy. But for the longest time it didn't look like anything was going to happen until the next took. Then we found out that Jon has the same bad family trait that Ned, Robb, and even Catelyn had...they don't see betrayel happening until the steel is drawn.

Jon became more like his father when he became Lord Commander. He even had more guile than his father, able to do things that were a little underminding. But he also picked up his father's tendancy to beligerently do what is right regardless of the consequences. I think Jon was trying to do the right thing with the Wildlings by bringing them into the fold to fight The Others. But he was trying to forcefeed certain members stuff they didn't want to eat. Bowen Marsh's betrayel is detesable but it makes sense. The Night's Watch was running out of food with a potential long winter looming. They couldn't afford more mouths Jon's mission to Hardhome was looking very much like suicide for the Watch. Credit to Martin there, he gives valid reasons for the mutiny to occur even though the mutiny might just destroy an important alliance with the Wildlings.

I don't think Martin's done with Jon Snow yet though. If Melisandre is capable of doing what Thoros did with Dondarrion, Jon Snow will rise again. Though his long-term future in nonexistent. I've become good at picking up certain things in the story but I have to admit I never considered that Jon might be the son of Rhaegal and Lyanna. Makes a hell of a lot of sense now that I think of it. Though fire can burn him.

Speaking of which, Quentyn Martell. I guess that storyline is to show that even noble adventures can end very badly. Another fantasy-shattering moment. It loosed the dragons on Meereen and hey, we did get a Ser Barristan POV out of it and I enjoyed that.

Glad to be here and able to finally post about this series.

Last edited by DarthPipes; January 29 2012 at 08:21 PM.
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Old January 29 2012, 08:09 PM   #427
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Kegg wrote: View Post
I honestly have no idea how that picture constitutes a spoiler.

Unless an alternate dimesnion Ned Stark from a modernized, urban version of Westeros is going to show up in season two and start fondling his secretary on the Iron Thorne, in which case I apologize for spoiling everyone.
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Old January 29 2012, 08:27 PM   #428
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

You know, about casting...for some reason I kept picturing the actor who plays Joran Mormont, Iain Gloin as Ser Davos when I read the books. I remember someone once saying that if they re-did Shogun, Gloin would be great for the lead role.

For the Red Viper, I kept picturing a young Rutger Hauer
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Old January 30 2012, 12:13 AM   #429
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

DarthPipes wrote: View Post
You know, about casting...for some reason I kept picturing the actor who plays Joran Mormont, Iain Gloin as Ser Davos when I read the books. I remember someone once saying that if they re-did Shogun, Gloin would be great for the lead role.
It's "Glen", he's not a Tolkien dwarf. But I always picture Iain Glen as the perfect middle-aged Obi-Wan Kenobi. He sounds so much like Alec Guinness.
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Old January 30 2012, 01:13 AM   #430
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

He's too good looking for Jorah Mormont, and as such he's managed to make Jorah a much beloved character to the TV audiences. Like how Harry Lloyd made Viserys so much more than the one-dimensional buffoon he was in the first book.

Iain Glen makes people forget that Jorah's problems are pretty much all his own fault despite him blaming Ned Stark for everything that went wrong with his life.
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Old January 30 2012, 05:10 AM   #431
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Evil Twin wrote: View Post
DarthPipes wrote: View Post
You know, about casting...for some reason I kept picturing the actor who plays Joran Mormont, Iain Gloin as Ser Davos when I read the books. I remember someone once saying that if they re-did Shogun, Gloin would be great for the lead role.
It's "Glen", he's not a Tolkien dwarf. But I always picture Iain Glen as the perfect middle-aged Obi-Wan Kenobi. He sounds so much like Alec Guinness.
Definitely could see middle-aged Obi-Wan. Right down to the voice.
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Old January 30 2012, 09:04 AM   #432
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

I'm 1/3 of the way through A Storm of Swords and I know I'm going to miss the series when I've finished. What about Martin's other books? Has anyone here read them and how do they compare to A Song of Ice and Fire?
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Old January 30 2012, 01:22 PM   #433
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

New trailer for Season 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOzXs...layer_embedded

I love how they used Varys' riddle for this.
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Old January 31 2012, 12:27 AM   #434
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Ayelbourne wrote: View Post
New trailer for Season 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOzXs...layer_embedded

I love how they used Varys' riddle for this.
It is fantasticly used.

What was with the scene where Cat was holding a knife to Littlefinger? It might just be a misleading shot or a change in the story. Although seeing the smug look knocked off Littlefinger's face is satisfying.

Poor Sansa. That scene with her being stripped looked as unpleasant on-screen as it was in the book.
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Old January 31 2012, 10:47 AM   #435
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

DarthPipes wrote: View Post
What was with the scene where Cat was holding a knife to Littlefinger? It might just be a misleading shot or a change in the story.
Maybe he visits her in Riverrun.
I can't imagine them meeting at Bitterbridge, since the council sent Littlefinger down there only after Renly's death.
There's no reason to send him with the contender for the throne still alive.
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