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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old January 21 2012, 08:58 PM   #226
CaptainMatt
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Re: Why are the TOS movies better then the TNG movies?

MasuPu'a wrote: View Post
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I felt Picard's rage in FC was costly but beliveable. The Borg appearances in TNG between TBOBW and the feature film First Contact were largely and wisely ignroed for the sake of dramatic license for this particular story.
I thought it was understandable to see Picard so upset. Yes, he's a pretty cool-headed captain, but everyone cracks under pressure (remember the episode where he was tortured by the Cardassians?). So it is believable to think that Picard has kept all this pent-up rage and guilt over the Borg using him to attack the Federation, and in FC it finally comes out.


Agreed, and it works better for a movie than in a regular TV series too. I think Stewart does some of his finest acting in this feature film. He comes face to face with his nightmares (the Queen) and handles it as best as anyone could expect him to.
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Old January 22 2012, 06:42 PM   #227
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Re: Why are the TOS movies better then the TNG movies?

Also, the Borg he encountered in I Borg and Descent were individuals and not part of the Collective. This is really the first time he is dealing with I guess you can say the "real" Borg. The ones that assimilated him.

In First Contact, Picard sees his worst nightmares become reality. The temporal wake at the beginning allows him to see that the Borg have conquered and assimilated Earth. He finds out in this film that he is still connected to them by the fact that he is able to "hear" them. Beverly must have missed a few Borg implants or something in TBOBW part 2 when she removed them. That might have made for an interesting exchange between the two in the movie, but sadly was overlooked. Picard himself may have thought that he dealt with his feelings regarding the Borg in the past, but this film puts that to the test.

Last edited by Vasquez Rocks; January 22 2012 at 07:12 PM.
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Old January 22 2012, 06:54 PM   #228
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Re: Why are the TOS movies better then the TNG movies?

I don't see a great deal of difference between the TOS and TNG era movies.

TOS - TWOK, TVH & TUC great, TMP, TSFS & TFF poor.

TNG - GEN & FC great, INS & NEM poor.
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Old January 22 2012, 09:01 PM   #229
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Re: Why are the TOS movies better then the TNG movies?

Vasquez Rocks wrote: View Post
Also, the Borg he encountered in I Borg and Descent were individuals and not part of the Collective. This is really the first time he is dealing with I guess you can say the "real" Borg. The ones that assimilated him.

In First Contact, Picard sees his worst nightmares become reality. The temporal wake at the beginning allows him to see that the Borg have conquered and assimilated Earth. He finds out in this film that he is still connected to them by the fact that he is able to "hear" them. Beverly must have missed a few Borg implants or something in TBOBW part 2 when she removed them. That might have made for an interesting exchange between the two in the movie, but sadly was overlooked. Picard himself may have thought that he dealt with his feelings regarding the Borg in the past, but this film puts that to the test.


Thank you for your post. it makes great sense to me and I have to concur with your viewpoints about Picard not having dealt with the "real" Borg Collective since TBOBW until FC takes place. He is surely put to the test even more so than in the earlier episodes, and has to rely on what he kniows to keep him afloat. I like how he summons the courage to go after Data towards the end of the film. After all, it was Data who pirmarily helped him through the assimilation crisis by linking to him in TBOBW. So it makes perfect sense now data is in trouble, that Picard would mount a rescue attempt. And the fact he doesn't involve any other crewmen makes it all the more personal which I love.
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Old January 23 2012, 12:23 AM   #230
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Re: Why are the TOS movies better then the TNG movies?

CaptainMatt wrote: View Post
Vasquez Rocks wrote: View Post
Also, the Borg he encountered in I Borg and Descent were individuals and not part of the Collective. This is really the first time he is dealing with I guess you can say the "real" Borg. The ones that assimilated him.

In First Contact, Picard sees his worst nightmares become reality. The temporal wake at the beginning allows him to see that the Borg have conquered and assimilated Earth. He finds out in this film that he is still connected to them by the fact that he is able to "hear" them. Beverly must have missed a few Borg implants or something in TBOBW part 2 when she removed them. That might have made for an interesting exchange between the two in the movie, but sadly was overlooked. Picard himself may have thought that he dealt with his feelings regarding the Borg in the past, but this film puts that to the test.


Thank you for your post. it makes great sense to me and I have to concur with your viewpoints about Picard not having dealt with the "real" Borg Collective since TBOBW until FC takes place. He is surely put to the test even more so than in the earlier episodes, and has to rely on what he kniows to keep him afloat. I like how he summons the courage to go after Data towards the end of the film. After all, it was Data who pirmarily helped him through the assimilation crisis by linking to him in TBOBW. So it makes perfect sense now data is in trouble, that Picard would mount a rescue attempt. And the fact he doesn't involve any other crewmen makes it all the more personal which I love.
Agreed. And I think part of the reason Picard goes alone is that people have noted how many lives Picard wasted earlier in his blind pursuit of revenge against the Borg. After he finally realized that his anger and guilt was foolish and pointless, he probably also saw how it was killing people needlessly. He goes alone rather then sacrifice another crewmember.
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Old January 23 2012, 12:38 AM   #231
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Re: Why are the TOS movies better then the TNG movies?

That a good explanation for it, thanks for suggesting it! It makes Picard into more of the hero he is meant to be when he dares to go by himself to face his inner demons one final time and to rescue Data, a loyal crewmember.
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Old January 23 2012, 01:09 AM   #232
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Re: Why are the TOS movies better then the TNG movies?

Angel4576 wrote: View Post
I don't see a great deal of difference between the TOS and TNG era movies.

TOS - TWOK, TVH & TUC great, TMP, TSFS & TFF poor.

TNG - GEN & FC great, INS & NEM poor.
My list would move TSFS over to the positive side and GEN to the dark side.
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Old January 23 2012, 01:39 PM   #233
The Green Mushroom
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Re: Why are the TOS movies better then the TNG movies?

I realize that most, if not all, of this may have been said before but:

The TOS movies are, in general, better than the TNG movies because they were created as movies (except for TMP) while the TNG movies were written as two hour long TV episodes with a bigger budget. All of the TNG movies have this problem, they are structured no different than the series are almost the 8th season of the show. They have an A-Story and a B-Story and use their extra time to put a little more characterization into each. The fact that the A-Story centers around Picard and the B-Story is usually about Data doesn't help in the slightest. Even the best of the TNG films, First Contact could easily have been done as a two part episode, albeit on a much smaller scale.
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Old January 25 2012, 12:40 AM   #234
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Re: Why are the TOS movies better then the TNG movies?

I agree with The Green Mushroom about the episode quality of TNG movies. Insurrection is particularly like a double episode with the classic Trek theme of idyllic villagers with something special they have to protect from greedy corporations.

For me though the main reason the TOS movies are better is I'm much fonder of the TOS crew than the TNG crew who I'm mostly meh about. I don't think I've ever lost the thrill of seeing the TOS folks on the big screen after so many years of only having 3 seasons of them.
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Old January 25 2012, 07:43 AM   #235
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Re: Why are the TOS movies better then the TNG movies?

CaptainMatt wrote: View Post
You would not like The War of the Worlds with Tom Cruise, then....
I loved War of the Worlds with Tom Cruise, in large part because it was more personal in scope--which I said I liked--and, as JerrodRussel pointed out, it wasn't about Tom Cruise saving the world.
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Old February 15 2012, 02:43 PM   #236
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Re: Why are the TOS movies better then the TNG movies?

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I believe that much of the success of the TOS movies is due to the participation of Nicholas Meyer.
Good call Meyer understood how to make a Trek film work.
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Old February 15 2012, 03:08 PM   #237
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Re: Why are the TOS movies better then the TNG movies?

The Overlord wrote: View Post
In terms of a general consensus amongst film buffs, there have been several good TOS films, but only one good TNG film (First Contact).
It is very much YMMV - depending on what you want from your Trek.

The TOS films covered such a wide array of styles (big ponderous sci-fi with TMP, action adventure with TWOK, whodunnit with TUC, environmentalist romantic comedy with TVH) that it is hard not to like at least one of them. None are great films, though the most critically respected is generally TWOK, with TMP getting honourable mentions for it's SFX, score and ambition.

TSFS and TFF are decidedly weaker than the others IMHO, but both have elements I love and a lot of other fans do. I would not want a trek canon without "Oh my God bones..." or the fun interplay between the three main characters in TFF.

The TNG movies on the other hand are a very odd bunch. They never really decide on the tone, so you get Generations, which saucer crash and Kirk cameo aside is just an episode of TNG. You also get two out and out action movies in FC and Nem, especially with the latter where it seems they took several set pieces and wrote a star trek story around them. The you get INS, and god knows what they were thinking, possibly a TVH effect but they might have wanted a better script if they were going to try that.

All eleven movies to date have their moments, and all are products of their time. How long-time fans perceive each one is very much dependent on what they want. Certainly those looking for a TMP style movie in the current climate will be very disappointed.
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Old February 15 2012, 03:48 PM   #238
Patrick O'Brien
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Re: Why are the TOS movies better then the TNG movies?

USS KG5 wrote: View Post
TSFS and TFF are decidedly weaker than the others IMHO, but both have elements I love and a lot of other fans do. I would not want a trek canon without "Oh my God bones..." or the fun interplay between the three main characters in TFF.[/QUOTE]

Great point. This is the reason why I watch TFF. The interaction between Kirk, Spock and McCoy is awesome.
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Old February 15 2012, 04:38 PM   #239
Galileo7
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Re: Why are the TOS movies better then the TNG movies?

Patrick O'Brien wrote: View Post
Herbert wrote: View Post
I believe that much of the success of the TOS movies is due to the participation of Nicholas Meyer.
Good call Meyer understood how to make a Trek film work.

Agree.
(If only Meyer had worked on TFF script it could have been one of the best.)
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Old February 15 2012, 10:14 PM   #240
Patrick O'Brien
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Re: Why are the TOS movies better then the TNG movies?

Galileo7 wrote: View Post
Patrick O'Brien wrote: View Post
Herbert wrote: View Post
I believe that much of the success of the TOS movies is due to the participation of Nicholas Meyer.
Good call Meyer understood how to make a Trek film work.

Agree.
(If only Meyer had worked on TFF script it could have been one of the best.)
I bet you are right. If only
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