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Old January 20 2012, 12:22 PM   #121
saturn5
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Re: Once More, With Feeling: my big Buffy/Angel canon rewatch/reread/r

DevilEyes wrote: View Post
saturn5 wrote: View Post
DevilEyes wrote: View Post
Echo and the dolls were prostitutes when and because they were brainwashed slaves. I get that it was a joke that Joss might be OK with making Slayers prostitutes but with so many people slagging off Joss these days for supposedly being sexist and misogynistic fake feminist, maybe someone might take it seriously.

Speaking of weirdly-themed fanfic that is not in the realm of "I wouldn't touch that with a ten-foot pole", I much prefer something like this - a shipper story about "Poinfe" (Mr. Pointy/Faith's knife). Though there's no sex in this one. I don't know if there are more antropomorphic objects fics, but this poll had me LMAO yesterday. I needed some laughter after all the heated debates and flame wars in the fandom recently due to the comics.
Yeah, I've often wondered that, Joss tending to have his cheesecake and eat it a lot, even the scene in Alien 4 where the drone carries Ripley off smacks of GOT. He puts his heroines through a lot but to be fair they always prevail.

As for the Dolls well they are both male and female and (Sierra aside) they did sign up for it so it is their choice.
GOT?

I don't agree with those rants against Joss (which have lately been raging due to the controversial storylines in season 8 and now in season 9, which I'm reserving judgment on until I see how this season unfolds; I expect that all this bringing Buffy low and tormenting her is the first part in the story that shows her enduring it and rising above it and rebuilding her life). One thing I also have to say is that he tortures both his female and male characters - usually the more he's invested in the character, the more he tortures them, and the more he tortures them, the bigger role and more screentime they have. Putting people through emotional and physical pain is often a way to show how tough and brave they are that they can endure it and prevail. An invulnerable superhero isn't really heroic, he's like Captain Hammer, who's a coward and can't take pain once he finally feels it; he was never brave since he was never at risk.

And what you say about his heroines being put through hell but fighting back and prevailing is true of Buffy, Dollhouse and River in Firefly/Serenity.

Not so on Angel, however. That's the one work by Joss I really can't defend from the feminist perspective. It's sad because the show was great in season 2 and had flashes of greatness in season 3, and there were some great female characters on the show (who all got killed off. But at least Darla had a great arc and ending). But while there were good things about the last two seasons, they were so many awful missteps, and their treatment of the main female characters which was just dreadful. Cordelia and Fred were simply "fridged" with no agency on their part, they lost control over their own bodies, it wasn't about their characters at all, they were just objects to get possessed, violated and killed, with the purpose of drawing emotional reactions from the male characters. There was no fighting back and no prevailing. Cordelia didn't even participate as a person in most of season 4, while her body was being used and abused. At least Cordelia got to return for an episode, to inspire Angel and die - but even that might not have happened if SMG had been available, since they initially wanted Buffy to be the one to get Angel back on track. Yes, it happened because of behind the scenes reasons in the former case, and in the latter it was just because Joss wanted to give Amy Acker a chance to play a cooler character - but didn't it occur to him that it wasn't a good idea to do this with his remaining, second most important female character, especially after what he did with the main female character? In the end AtS was a total boy's club, there were no women on the team at the end of the show (since Illyria is not female). Doyle and Wesley got heroic deaths, but Cordy and Fred were just treated as objects. They aren't even among my favorite characters, but that was just awful. And I also hated how season 5 treated Buffy's character in her absence, making her a trophy for the boys to fight over in their pissing contests, especially in that horrible episode The Girl In Question. At least the comics got to retcon Buffy's part in it and salvage her character - and whatever the comics season end up doing, I'll always love them for that!
GOT is a fetish for beautiful women raped and impregnated by monsters/demons/aliens whom they then fall in love with....actually thinking about it this happens to CC three times so maybe you're right about Joss?
http://monstersandangels.com/

Yeah but Echo and co chose to be dolls for a variety of reasons (the ep where we find out Sierra didn't choose is the all important one).
Angel investigations did very much become a boys club by season 5 although I don't think you can blame Joss for having to write out CC, that was due to outside factors. Personally I love TGIQ but we'll talk about that one when you get there.

I actually bought the Buffy/Dawn/Joyce action figures display and you get the mask on the wall free with it. Joyce does seem quite pally with Will's mother in 'Gingerbread'.

They do accept that it is a convenient cliche that supernatural threats tend to peak in mid spring in Sunnydale in season 7. I'm ok with the other scoobs slaying some vamps, they are experienced, they have numbers and weapons.

Dead Man's Party

The Good;
Cordy's outfit, Buffy's homecoming. Joyce's friend Pat. Jonathon. The attack of the undead, another Sunnydale High cheerleader seemingly amongst them. Giles's 'Americans' line and his hotwiring the car. Oz's party definitions. 'Ripper' threatening Snyder

The Bad;
Before Giles arrives the house is full of zombies, after he gets there they all disappear? Also would Joyce really choose to hang that horrible mask in the bedroom, even if it is art?

Best line;
Oz; "And a hootenany. Well that's chock full of hoot. With just a little bit of nanny" (How effortlessly cool is Seth Green in this scene?)

Whedon Cliches;
Character death; So long Pat, we hardly knew you. But at least the actress goes on to be Earl's mum in 'My Name is Earl'

Shot;

Tied up; none although when Xander says he's tied up tomorrow Cordy says 'You wish'??????
Knocked out;
Women good/men bad;

Kinky dinky; Buffy is aghast that Joyce wants her to go to private school where she'll have to wear a schoolgirl's uniform. Well it worked for Britney. Cordy says that Xander turned her on with the whole 'Nighthawk' vamphunter look (she also seemed to like him in his army gear in Halloween) Her party dress has to be seen to be believed. Also see 'Tied Up'

Calling Captain Subtext; this time it's Oz and Cordy who end up in the closet together

Questions and observations;
So where is Dawn in all of this? Snyder advises Buffy to get a job in fast food which she eventually does. The confrontation between Joyce and Buffy is really long overdue and Joyce really does have a point. Willow is studying to be witch. Jonathon gets in on the demon fighting for the first time as do Joyce and Devon. After this it's business as usual and we're glad to get back to the status quo in Sunnydale. Joyce's tipple is schnapps and she has a book club (which she later attends in season 5). She also skis to judge by the weapons Oz and Cordy use in the closet. Xander calls himself Nighthawk on patrol, they seem to be pretty good at the vamp staking, having killed at least 6. I'd love to see if they handled any other supernatural threats during the summer. The Mayor is mentioned again and the first appearance of the Expresso Pump. Cordy refers to Buffy as a freak but she'll later become one herself on Angel. Presumably the Watcher's Council used their influence to help get Buffy back in school (see also Checkpoint). Willow is still practicing witchcraft and growing more proficient.
6/10, good but not brilliant
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Old January 20 2012, 04:20 PM   #122
DevilEyes
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Re: Once More, With Feeling: my big Buffy/Angel canon rewatch/reread/r

saturn5 wrote: View Post
Best line;
Oz; "And a hootenany. Well that's chock full of hoot. With just a little bit of nanny" (How effortlessly cool is Seth Green in this scene?)
I had to rewind that scene a few times to understand what the heck they were saying.

Tied up; none although when Xander says he's tied up tomorrow Cordy says 'You wish'??????
Ha, how did I forget about that one? I usually notice all the kinky sex puns. But it's a bit funny that Cordy and Xander are having BDSM jokes when they haven't even had sex (and won't with each other). That pun worked much better in Dead Things.

So where is Dawn in all of this?
Probably not doing anything too important. When the monks altered everyone's memories, they couldn't change the basic events too much. I like the theory I've read somewhere that Dawn feels unimportant and ignored because, during all those years of her fake life, she didn't affect any of the events, they would've all happened the same way without her (which they actually did).

Though some people think that Buffy being institutionalized happened only in the fake memories world. In the (murky canon) Dark Horse comic, it happened because Dawn read her diary and told her parents.
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Old January 20 2012, 10:30 PM   #123
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Re: Once More, With Feeling: my big Buffy/Angel canon rewatch/reread/r

I like that theory, being as Buffy never referred to being in an institute until season six. It was a bit random to bring something that earth-shattering in Buffy's past out of nowhere.

I agree with the thoughts on Xander being a jerk in Dead Man's Party. Sure I can understand why he was pissed with Buffy, but he was absolutely horrible with her. I know that his feelings towards Angel were always a bit tainted due to his feelings for Buffy, but putting it all down to 'boy trouble' was crass even for him.

The rest of the episode is pretty good though, and is full of the funny stuff. I loved Buffy looking down to the scoobies when she jumped in and saved them all at the start. The way everyone just falls to the floor, and then Buffy sees Cordelia and just throws her down with them! Giles was a hoot too: "Do you like my mask? Isn't it pretty? It raises the dead. Americans!"
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Old January 26 2012, 12:24 AM   #124
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Re: Once More, With Feeling: my big Buffy/Angel canon rewatch/reread/r

3.03. Faith, Hope and Trick

This episode feels more like a proper season opener, as it introduces some new characters that are going to be play important roles season 3 (and some whose roles aren’t really going to be that big, but who are there as a temporary distraction) and features the return of an old character that’s framed as a surprise but that everyone must have seen coming long before. (Yes, that would be Angel.) It’s not a great episode or anything, but it’s pretty good in what it sets out to do.

For once, the title actually says exactly what it’s about, naming the three recurring characters introduced in this episode – Buffy’s new love interest (of sorts), Scott Hope; the new vampire antagonist, Mr Trick; and one that this episode is really remembered by – Faith, soon to become one of my favorite characters on the show and one of the most popular characters in the fandom at large.

There’s also some obvious play on words with the title, but I don’t know if it’s supposed to be deep and meaningful or if it just sounds good as a pun on “faith, hope and love” or whatever it’s usually supposed to be. Are the names of the characters supposed to have a deeper meaning? Mr. Trick obviously has the most appropriate name, since a) he’s a tricky fellow, and 2) his entire role on the show is the kind of narrative trick that the show already did with Spike in season 2. But if Scott Hope was named that way because he is supposed to represent “hope” for Buffy to move on… that’s a poor hope indeed. As for Faith… I’ve always wondered why exactly she was named that way. Joss once said that her name was ironic because “she is one of the most faithless characters on the show”. Was she supposed to represent someone who, at first, seems to have “faith” in herself and in Slaying? Which she really doesn’t, as we learn later. Another irony, maybe?

There are three narrative threads in the episode, that more of less come together: Buffy finally starting to cope with sending Angel to hell, and at the same time trying to “move on” by dating a rather bland guy at school, urged on by her friends; a new group of vampires who arrive to town, and whose boss has the intention of killing “the Slayer” (except that, as we soon learn, it’s not the one we think it is); and the Scoobies meeting the other new Slayer, Faith, activated a few months earlier when Kendra died.

Despite Giles’s threats in the last episode, Buffy hasn’t yet been admitted back to school, but soon is, thanks to the school board overruling Snyder. It’s great to see Joyce supportive of her daughter in front of Snyder. The Slayer-gay metaphor is brought up again when Joyce tells Buffy she’s tried to “march in the Slayer Pride”.

Buffy has another dream about Angel, fulfilling her quota of a dream per episode, and this one is less subtle than the one in Anne: Buffy and Angel are dancing at the Bronze, with her friends staring at them, until he starts blaming her for killing him, asking her how she could do it when he loved her, and turning into a maniacally laughing zombie. We get it, Buffy feels really guilty about sending him to hell (so much that she’s apparently forgetting that she had no choice since the whole world would have otherwise been sucked into hell, together with Angel, and that it was all the result of Angel’s previous actions). The Claddagh ring plays quite a role in the episode, dropping on the floor in a scene that Buffy will later be reminded of when Scott Hope shows her the new “friendship” ring he bought her, which will really freak her out.

In the spirit of the Scoobies’ apparent belief that being single is not an option and that the only way to move on from a romantic relationship that ended tragically is to immediately jump into a new relationship with anyone single that fancies you and that you don’t find abhorrent, Willow suggests to Buffy to date a guy called Scott Hope. His main qualities seem to be that he’s presumably not a mass-murdering demon and that he seems to be into Buffy because he keeps looking at her (high standards or what?!). He’s cute, if you like the bland boy-band type of look, and the Scoobies think he’s charming, which he is in the sense that he’s not an outright jerk, he’s sociable and he can make a conversation. But he kind of tries a bit too hard, like giving Buffy a ring after they’ve known each other after just a couple of days. (Note: in the original script, it’s made clear that he didn’t actually buy her a Claddagh ring, which would’ve been really creepy, but an ordinary plastic ring, and it just looked like a Claddagh ring to Buffy for a moment; but buying presents like this is still really weird in that stage of “relationship”.) Buffy doesn’t even seem to be all that into the guy but seems to think this is what she should do to “move on”.

The one who’s doing a much better job of trying to make Buffy deal with her Angel trauma is Giles. He weaves some tale of how he needs to know what exactly happened with Acathla so he would perform a binding spell. In the end he reveals to Willow there never was any binding spell. He was just trying to get Buffy to finally talk about what happened in Becoming II. After having helped Faith with her own trauma, Buffy finally finds the strength to tell Giles and Willow that Angel had his soul back before she sent him to Hell. This seems to allow her a degree of closure, and in the last scene she leaves her Claddagh ring on the floor of the mansion, saying “Goodbye”.

And of course, it’s right after she leaves that Angel finally returns, or rather is returned from the hell dimension and drops to the floor of the mansion.

The other two narrative threads are much more interesting. The teaser introduces two new vampires. Kakistos is a very old vampire (so old that his feet have become cloven – another confirmation that extremely old vampires become physically less human, as we’ve seen with the bat-faced Master) who is described as someone very scary (his name is supposed to mean “the worst of the worst” in Greek according to Giles) and is introduced as a red herring Big Bad in the season 1 vein, but is really quite cliché and doesn’t have any of the presence or dark humor of the Master; he’s more like the new Luke, a big strong scary vampire who’ll get disposed of very soon. Kakistos wants revenge on Faith because she blinded him in one eye and left a scar on his face (what do you need to do to blind a vampire, anyway, without poking his eye out? Throw holy water on his face?).

A far more colorful character is his minion, Mr. Trick. One of the few black vampires – and black people in general – that we see on the show, he is funny, stylish, pragmatic and manipulative, wears designer suits and thinks that vampires should get on with the times and use the opportunities presented by Internet. And he really likes to use young male fast food employees and pizza delivery boys as food. He despises his master’s old-fashioned ways and is quite content to let him die at the hands of the two Slayers. His introduction on the show is one of the best, and he presents an opportunity for the writers address their own failing to have more ethnic diversity on the show, by having him note that Sunnydale is an overwhelmingly white town. He also notes the incredible death rate, comparing it to Washington D.C., in a clever fake-out where the show almost makes you think for a moment that he’s a black gangster stereotype, until he’s revealed to be a vampire, talking to another vampire.

Looking at the season as a whole, Mr. Trick’s role is what Spike’s role in season 2 was initially meant to be: to be a fun, interesting, unconventional villain until he is killed halfway through the season to make way for the real main antagonist and the betrayal by a character close to Buffy. Although it may not have been planned as such initially, since actor K. Todd Freeman has said that he was supposed to be in just one episode and that they wrote him in 5 more because they liked him.

And now for the main reason why this episode is important – the introduction of Faith.

Charismatic, confident, tough, sexy, loud, brash and open, Faith is the type of person who takes everyone by the storm the moment she bursts on the scene. If it’s comparable to something, it’s to the way Buffy immediately captured the attention of Xander, Willow and even Cordelia when she burst onto the scene of Sunnydale High in Welcome to the Hellmouth. Faith’s slaying stories hold the Scoobies breathless, Xander can hardly keep himself from literally drooling over her, Giles is flattered when she calls him young and cute, and even Joyce seems taken by her and sees her as a potentially positive role model for Buffy since Faith, unlike Buffy, seems to really enjoy her calling.

If Kendra was a contrast to Buffy as a traditional, rule-abiding Slayer, Faith is on the opposite side of the spectrum, as a rebellious and fun-loving Slayer. But Kendra and Faith do have some things in common that separate them from Buffy: both unambiguously accept and love their calling, and both are alone, Faith more so since she’s lost her Watcher. But while Kendra was alone because of her future calling – she was separated from her family at an early age in order to train as a Potential – Faith’s life already sucked due to her family background and things only got better for her when she became a Slayer.

Faith has no qualms about admitting that she enjoys her powers and slaying for other reasons than just the satisfaction of doing good, and openly mentions that “Slaying makes you hungry and horny”. Buffy admits at least the former, when she proposes that the two of them have something to eat after they’ve killed Kakistos – as for the latter, she genuinely doesn’t seem to have thought about it, but we’ve seen hints of that when she got closer to Angel in Angel after they fought the Three, kissed him after killing the Order of Taraka assassin in What’s My Line I, and had sex after running from the Judge.

At first everyone seems to be taken by Faith, except Buffy – and maybe Cordelia, who also shows signs of jealousy, e.g. when she says “Does anyone think that’s her real hair color” (probably the writer’s private joke at the expense of Sarah Michelle Gellar and Alyson Hannigan). But Buffy is really jealous and threatened by Faith, and while I can understand where it’s coming from – Buffy has changed a lot since season 1 and become a lot gloomier, and Faith is now stealing her thunder and becoming the center of attention the way Buffy used to be – Buffy’s behavior is rather poor and her fears of Faith taking over her life really exaggerated (at this point). It would be nice if she were happier to have another Slayer and empathy for the fact that Faith has nobody and nowhere to go except to a cheap hotel. She is upset that Faith is eating her food at dinner, instead of understanding that it’s because Faith is not used to good homemade food and to being invited to dinners. Generally, Faith does not bring out the best in Buffy. But why is Buffy so threatened? Because Xander has someone else to drool over? Because Faith hit it off with Buffy’s not-boyfriend she’s not even that into? What’s the real reason Faith seems to be “taking over her life” as Buffy feels? Maybe because she’s another Slayer, one who enjoys her calling a lot more than Buffy does? The only good reason for Buffy to be threatened is that, whatever she may say, she thinks of herself as the Slayer and doesn’t want to let someone else take over – something that her mom suggests, but Buffy immediately rejects it with a rather unconvincing explanation.

But Buffy’s instinct is correct when it comes to the fact that Faith is hiding something, and that there’s something off with her. Beneath all the bluster, there’s vulnerability and insecurity, as we see soon when Faith freezes when she has to confront Kakistos, which triggers a recent trauma. She lied about her Watcher being in England because she wasn’t able to tell them how her Watcher died, just like Buffy wasn’t able to tell the Scoobies about Angel having his soul back when she ‘killed’ him. We see hints of Faith’s abusive history and the first sign of her disturbing enjoyment in violence as a way to take out her emotional issues, when she keeps pummeling a vampire and screaming “MY DEAD MOTHER HIT HARDER THAN THAT!” and“DON’T TOUCH ME!” instead of dusting him and coming to help Buffy fight the other vampires. We’ve already learned a few big things about Faith’s background:

- Dropped out of high school
- Didn’t have any good friends in school
- Comes from a poor background and lives in cheap hotels
- Her mother is dead
- Her mother used to beat her up
- Her Watcher was killed is a gruesome way by Kakistos, and Faith still feels guilty for running away before she could kill him.

Faith’s Watcher was a woman, and probably an older woman (since Faith implies that she didn’t know Watchers could be as young and cute as Giles). She might have been a much needed mother figure to Faith.

When Buffy helps Faith work through her trauma and they fight Kakistos together, with Faith being the one to dust him, the two girls finally start bonding, and Buffy goes on to work through her own trauma. The irony is that the two of them wouldn’t have seemed so different in other circumstances, and if Faith had met Buffy last year, before Innocence, she would have met someone a lot more open, bubbly and fun. As it is, Faith will get the impression that Buffy is uptight and with no sense of fun.

Fashion in the episode is something I really have to comment on. While Willow has become less nerdy and is wearing cute sweaters instead of silly “Look at me, I’m nerdy” shirts and overalls, Xander is still the king of silly shirt designs, Cordelia is elegant as usual, and Giles is halfway between his stuffy early style and his later seasons casual style, Faith wears tight vinyl pants and a black top that Cordelia considers trashy, and Buffy has for some reason suddenly started dressing like soccer mom. I cannon describe how much I HATE Buffy’s outfits in this episode, and IIRC, it continues throughout season 3. What the hell happened, Buffy, why would you change your style like that – except to allow the show to make a bigger stereotypical good girl/bad girl contrast with Faith?

Best lines:
Buffy: All right, yes, date and shop and hang out and go to school and save the world from unspeakable demons. You know, I want to do girlie stuff.

Buffy: So let me get this straight. I'm really back in school because the school board *overruled* you. (Snyder faces her) Wow. That's like having your whole ability to do this job called into question, when you think about it.
Joyce: I think what my daughter's trying to say is: 'Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah!'

Willow (to Faith): Oz is a werewolf.
Buffy: It's a long story.
Oz: I got bit.
Buffy: Apparently not that long.

Worst lines:
Cordelia: Oh, you mean 'cause of how the only guy that ever liked her turned into a vicious killer and had to be put down like a dog?

Uh, Cordy, “the only guy that ever liked her”?! That’s very inaccurate, did she just forget about her boyfriend Xander’s huge and annoying crush on Buffy? Not to mention Owen, another guy Cordy seemed to fancy. And that swimmer guy. And all the guys who liked Buffy before she came to Sunnydale. It’s hardly a question of Buffy not having had any options, it’s about how she was in love with, methinks.

And this bit of dialogue doesn’t make sense:

Buffy: Mom, no one can take over for me.
Joyce: But you're going to college next year. I think it would be...
Buffy: Mom, the only way you get a new Slayer is when the old Slayer dies.

What does that have to do with Buffy letting Faith take over? Buffy has already died and that’s how Kendra and Faith came to be Slayers. Buffy is actually in the perfect position to retire, if that’s what she wants to do. She doesn’t really seem to want to and feels threatened by Faith, which says a lot. Was her mom just too distracted to learn that Buffy died that she failed to notice that Buffy wasn’t making sense? Or was it just a clumsy writing attempt to have Joyce learn that Buffy died at one point.

Mythology: The first time the Council of Watchers is mentioned. They hold their yearly „retreats“ in England with a lot of lectures as well leasure activities like kayaking, but Giles has never been invited to one of those. Why was that?

Maybe it used to be because he was known as a rebel/troublemaker, and now it’s because he’s too busy.
We also learn that Faith was activated when Kendra died, which means that the next Slayer should be called when Faith dies; although at this point we still don’t know for sure what will happen when Buffy dies for the second time, and if it would result in yet another Slayer (as we now know, it won’t – the Slayer line doesn’t go through her anymore; though this obviously became irrelevant after Chosen).

Pop culture references: When Buffy prepares a lunch for her friends, Cordelia compares her to Martha Stewart (I guess it goes really well with Buffy’s makeover into a soccer mom in this episode ). Buffy references the movie Single White Female in which Jennifer Jason Leigh plays a psycho who’s trying to take over Bridget Fonda’s life. Scott invites Buffy to a Buster Keaton film festival. Mr. Trick (mis)quotes George Gershwin’s song „Summertime“: „Where the humans and jumping and the cotton is high“.

Nicknames: Faith immediately starts calling Buffy „B.“. Buffy ironically calls her back „F.“. Cordelia’s first reaction to seeing Faith for the first time, dancing with a guy who turns out to be a vampire, is to call them „Slut-o-rama and her Disco Dave“. Buffy keeps messing up Kakistos’ name, calling him Kissing Toast and Kaki Trousers.

Destroying English language: Buffy sarcastically calls Faith „my bestest new little sister“. This is the second time „bestest“ has been used on the show, and both times it was in a sarcastic way. Something interesting to keep in mind when reading season 8...

Ooh, kinky: Willow makes one of her unintentional double entendres, telling Buffy she should charm Scott by doing „that thing you do with your mouth that boys like“. Upon Buffy’s startled reaction, she quickly explains she meant Buffy’s half-smile, not „that bad thing with your mouth.“ It’s not a bad thing, Willow...

Cordelia comments on Xander’s attraction to Slayers and that maybe she should dress up as one and put a stake to his chest (which is the type of fantasy Spike will enact with Harmony and Buffybot in season 5), Xander says he would like that to be more than sarcasm. Am I the only one who’s a bit fed up that so far it’s been always Xander (out of the non-vampire characters) who tends to have kinky sex fantasies, per the stereotype of a horny teenage boy? Luckily Faith’s arrival is soon going to change this.

Shirtless scene: Or rather, the first naked scene, as Angel falls into this dimension and onto the floor of the mansion, butt naked.

Foreshadowing: The Mayor is name-checked again; they’ve slowly been building him up since season 2, until we finally meet him. Faith will in fact literally try to take over Buffy’s life in Who Are You? Buffy’s „little sister“ comment and Joyce’s line that it’s fortunate Buffy is the only child might be seen as foreshadowing for Dawn, though I doubt that it was planned back in season 3. Kakistos’ line „I don’t care if there are hundreds of Slayers...“ is probably another bit of completely accidental foreshadowing.

Rating: 3.5
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Old January 26 2012, 10:45 AM   #125
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Re: Once More, With Feeling: my big Buffy/Angel canon rewatch/reread/r

I always took it that Faith's name represented our having Faith in her. Now of course if you believe in the Normal Again theory then 'Faith' is a symbol of Buffy's will to get better, that she is no longer the only Slayer (and consider we later get a character called 'Dawn'?) giving her (Scott?)hope that she can lead an ordinary life, which are Faith's final words to her in the show, just before it ends/she wakes up sane again in the asylum. However Buffy never knows about Giles' trick which is a point against it
I love the Joyce/Faith scenes, I think if Buffy had been killed Faith would be the Slayer, Dawn would be her sister and Joyce would be their adopted mother. I also like the idea of Jaith. Interesting that Buffy refers to Faith as 'little' sister establishing her as the younger girl. One wonders if Dawn's initial antipathy to Faith when she returns to Sunnydale is based on jealousy that Buffy has this cool new female friend to hang out with and is a rival for her affections?
Note we also have our first evidence of a female Watcher.

Faith, Hope and Trick

The Good;
Faith. Need I really say any more? Faith dancing and fighting is great but also the scenes where we get to see her terrified, more vulnerable side. Love the scenes where Buffy is being single-white-femaled by Faith which she takes with suprising good humour. And Angel's back, yay! Love Joyce sticking it to Snyder and the uncoupling scene at Buffy's picnic.

The Bad;
The idea of Mr Trick being able to order children online as food is just too horrible for words

Best line; Mr Trick "Admittedly not a haven for the bruthas, strictly of the Caucasion persuasion here in the Dale" just beating Xander's wonderful "People say kids don't learn anything at High School. well I learnt, I learnt to be afraid!"

Tied up; no but presumably Faith was handcuffed when she was arrested

Kinky dinky; Now that Faith is on the scene I expect to have a great deal more to write in this column. She starts off with naked slaying and alligator wrestling and saying Slaying makes you 'hungry and horny' (of course in Get It Done we discover why Slayers have these sort of feelings). And of course, the writers find an excuse for nude Angel too. According to Willow Buffy has a thing she does with her mouth that 'boys like'. Hmmmmm? Xander calls Buffy a slut. Buffy's fondling of the letter opener is reminiscent of her stroking the crystal in 'Helpless'. Cordy refers to Faith as 'Slut-o-rama' but also suggests that she dress up as a Slayer and put a stake to Xander's throat, a sex game he seems keen on.

Calling Captain Subtext; Faith obviously hungers for both a mother and father figure, commenting on Giles' 'youth and beauty' and obviously enamoured of Joyce, saying she's really cool (something I suspect Buffy and Dawn would also think but never say). Joyce says she likes Faith and Buffy describes Joyce as the 'best mom ever'. Faith's line about her 'Dead mother hitting harder than that' is loaded with not so hidden meaning. Faith has not only never knew her dad but lost her mother and also her female Watcher making her pretty desperate for some maternal/paternal love. So I pronounce this Jaith and Gaith. She also starts putting the moves on Scott Hope, the beginning of a long tradition of stealing Buffy's boyfriends (Buffy is still touchy when Faith mentions Angel). BUT even Buffy describes Faith as 'personable' the beginning of the biggest subtext in the series. Joyce actually refers to marching in the 'Slayer pride parade' again likening being the Slayer to being gay.

Questions and observations;
The introduction of Mr Trick and Faith, the series just never looking back from this point. Kakistos seems to not be killable with a regular stake. Like The Master he seems to be so old that he's devolving into a Turok-Han. Martha Stewart is mentioned as she is later revealed by Anya to be a witch. Giles' subtle efforts to get Buffy to reveal the truth about what happened to Angel (another point against Normal Again, Buffy never knows about this). There are no leprechauns in the Buffyverse but judging by DB's attempts at an Irish accent and Charmed's efforts in that direction we should be grateful. Faith's dead Watcher was female, the first we've heard about. I know some people think that she was killed during Faith's Cruciamentum which we'll later see in Helpless but that happens when a Slayer turns 18 and Faith is younger than Buffy who is 17 (Buffy refers to Faith as her little sister, at least until Dawn comes along). Giles loves to kayak. Couldn't the Watcher's Council pay for Faith to have a better apartment? Or couldn't she live with Giles or Buffy and Joyce (Dawn's room isn't being used yet). Mr Trick is right, not many visible ethnic minorities in Sunnydale but I've been to Santa Barbara which it's apparently based on and it's a pretty accurate representation. Giles warns Willow for the first time about abuse of magic. You can make fire from ice and it doesn't take magic. Presumably Khakisto's scar doesn't heal because Faith inflicted it with some form of enchanted weapon, like Spike's with the Chinise Slayer. Joyce comments on Buffy being an only child and learns for the first time that Buffy died. You wonder what Dawn makes of Faith? She resents her when they first meet in season 7 but what's her attitude on season 3?

Why no commentaries on all these brilliant episodes? Crap like Reptile Boy gets them but not classics like this? Please Joss, if you need a few million dollars to finance your next project just sit down with the cast and do some commentaries for Buffy; Special Edition DVDs, we'd all buy them.

10/10
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Old January 26 2012, 11:06 AM   #126
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Re: Once More, With Feeling: my big Buffy/Angel canon rewatch/reread/r

saturn5 wrote: View Post
Note we also have our first evidence of a female Watcher.
We knew since season 1 that there were female Watchers, since Giles told Buffy in Never Kill A Boy On the First Date that his father and paternal grandmother were Watchers.

Calling Captain Subtext; Faith obviously hungers for both a mother and father figure, commenting on Giles' 'youth and beauty' and obviously enamoured of Joyce, saying she's really cool (something I suspect Buffy and Dawn would also think but never say).
I'm not sure I'd call Faith calling Giles young and cute her "looking for a father figure", that's usually not the way you look for a father figure.
She also starts putting the moves on Scott Hope, the beginning of a long tradition of stealing Buffy's boyfriends
Not really, except in Buffy's mind. Even if Faith simply talking to Scott is considered "putting the moves on him", he wasn't Buffy's boyfriend, and Faith didn't even know who he was when she started talking to him.

The only boyfriends she did try to steal were Angel in season 3 and Riley (as a part of trying to steal Buffy's life in general), but with Angel is was mostly because the Mayor asked her to seduce him. In season 7 she already flirted with Spike before she learned in that same scene that there had been anything between him and Buffy (and she had already flirted with him in Buffy's body in season 4).
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Old January 26 2012, 07:15 PM   #127
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Re: Once More, With Feeling: my big Buffy/Angel canon rewatch/reread/r

DevilEyes wrote: View Post
saturn5 wrote: View Post
Note we also have our first evidence of a female Watcher.
We knew since season 1 that there were female Watchers, since Giles told Buffy in Never Kill A Boy On the First Date that his father and paternal grandmother were Watchers.

Calling Captain Subtext; Faith obviously hungers for both a mother and father figure, commenting on Giles' 'youth and beauty' and obviously enamoured of Joyce, saying she's really cool (something I suspect Buffy and Dawn would also think but never say).
I'm not sure I'd call Faith calling Giles young and cute her "looking for a father figure", that's usually not the way you look for a father figure.
She also starts putting the moves on Scott Hope, the beginning of a long tradition of stealing Buffy's boyfriends
Not really, except in Buffy's mind. Even if Faith simply talking to Scott is considered "putting the moves on him", he wasn't Buffy's boyfriend, and Faith didn't even know who he was when she started talking to him.

The only boyfriends she did try to steal were Angel in season 3 and Riley (as a part of trying to steal Buffy's life in general), but with Angel is was mostly because the Mayor asked her to seduce him. In season 7 she already flirted with Spike before she learned in that same scene that there had been anything between him and Buffy (and she had already flirted with him in Buffy's body in season 4).
Was it Giles' grandmother or grandfather?

I like the idea of Gaith and arguably we may finally get it in the comics?

Remember Faith is the 'do that' girl who thinks that friends are there to sate her carnal desires so if she thinks Scott's cute there's only one thing on her mind? Remember Faith also puts the moves on Robin Wood and Spike. The girl can't help it
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Old January 26 2012, 11:59 PM   #128
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Re: Once More, With Feeling: my big Buffy/Angel canon rewatch/reread/r

saturn5 wrote: View Post
Was it Giles' grandmother or grandfather?
Grandmother. "I was ten years old when my father told me I was destined to be a Watcher. He was one, and his mother before him, and I was to be next."

I like the idea of Gaith and arguably we may finally get it in the comics?
Have you read season 8?

Remember Faith is the 'do that' girl who thinks that friends are there to sate her carnal desires so if she thinks Scott's cute there's only one thing on her mind? Remember Faith also puts the moves on Robin Wood and Spike. The girl can't help it
Scott wasn't Buffy's boyfriend and Faith didn't even know that there was anything between him and Buffy. She didn't make any moves on him that we know of after he started dating Buffy, or after he dumped her.

Faith flirted with Spike long before there was anything between him and Buffy (season 4) and she put the moves on him in Dirty Girls before she even learned about his and Buffy's history. Leaving aside the question whether Spike could be considered Buffy's boyfriend at that point, if Faith wanted to go after Buffy's boyfriends, Buffy's jealous reaction in Dirty Girls would've made her want to go after Spike more. But instead she didn't try anything with him after that and hooked up with Wood instead.

Wood was most definitely not Buffy's boyfriend when Faith met him. Buffy had only flirted and went out on one aborted date with him a while before, and neither of them pursued it since Buffy obviously still had feelings for Spike and Wood was smart enough to notice. And Faith didn't even have any idea that there had been any romantic interest between Buffy and Wood. Buffy doesn't have proprietary rights over every guy she's ever flirted with or tried to date.

Bottom line, Buffy and Faith might just have a similar taste in men, but it's really not like Faith has been targeting Buffy's boyfriends, like a jealous sister who wants to get one over Buffy. She did try to steal Buffy's boyfriend in season 3, but only after she went bad and the Mayor told her to make Angel evil and get them on her side. Riley she did 'steal' and that was when she was trying to steal Buffy's life. But reformed Faith in season 7 didn't try anything of the sort - she was even uncomfortable when she was named the leader instead of Buffy.
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Old January 27 2012, 12:02 AM   #129
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Re: Once More, With Feeling: my big Buffy/Angel canon rewatch/reread/r

DevilEyes wrote: View Post

Shirtless scene: Or rather, the first naked scene, as Angel falls into this dimension and onto the floor of the mansion, butt naked.
I always wondered if he fell on the ring Buffy left on the floor. That would leave a mark!
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Old January 27 2012, 04:20 PM   #130
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Re: Once More, With Feeling: my big Buffy/Angel canon rewatch/reread/r

DevilEyes wrote: View Post
saturn5 wrote: View Post
Was it Giles' grandmother or grandfather?
Grandmother. "I was ten years old when my father told me I was destined to be a Watcher. He was one, and his mother before him, and I was to be next."

I like the idea of Gaith and arguably we may finally get it in the comics?
Have you read season 8?

Remember Faith is the 'do that' girl who thinks that friends are there to sate her carnal desires so if she thinks Scott's cute there's only one thing on her mind? Remember Faith also puts the moves on Robin Wood and Spike. The girl can't help it
Scott wasn't Buffy's boyfriend and Faith didn't even know that there was anything between him and Buffy. She didn't make any moves on him that we know of after he started dating Buffy, or after he dumped her.

Faith flirted with Spike long before there was anything between him and Buffy (season 4) and she put the moves on him in Dirty Girls before she even learned about his and Buffy's history. Leaving aside the question whether Spike could be considered Buffy's boyfriend at that point, if Faith wanted to go after Buffy's boyfriends, Buffy's jealous reaction in Dirty Girls would've made her want to go after Spike more. But instead she didn't try anything with him after that and hooked up with Wood instead.

Wood was most definitely not Buffy's boyfriend when Faith met him. Buffy had only flirted and went out on one aborted date with him a while before, and neither of them pursued it since Buffy obviously still had feelings for Spike and Wood was smart enough to notice. And Faith didn't even have any idea that there had been any romantic interest between Buffy and Wood. Buffy doesn't have proprietary rights over every guy she's ever flirted with or tried to date.

Bottom line, Buffy and Faith might just have a similar taste in men, but it's really not like Faith has been targeting Buffy's boyfriends, like a jealous sister who wants to get one over Buffy. She did try to steal Buffy's boyfriend in season 3, but only after she went bad and the Mayor told her to make Angel evil and get them on her side. Riley she did 'steal' and that was when she was trying to steal Buffy's life. But reformed Faith in season 7 didn't try anything of the sort - she was even uncomfortable when she was named the leader instead of Buffy.
I think it is there, any boy Buffy shows an interest in Faith automatically takes a shine to (just check out Buffy's expression when she sees Faith all pally with Spike and Woods).
Although ironically it's our sweet little Willow who's the boyfriend stealer in the series. Come to think of it they're the one's who commit the female 'rapes' in the series, Faith-as-Buffy seducing Riley and Willow using magic on Tara.
I did read season 8 and Faith and Giles are finally a duo although it's left unclear if their relationship is platonic or not
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Old January 27 2012, 05:58 PM   #131
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Re: Once More, With Feeling: my big Buffy/Angel canon rewatch/reread/r

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I did read season 8 and Faith and Giles are finally a duo although it's left unclear if their relationship is platonic or not
Did you read it to the end?

I'm pretty sure it's platonic since 1) the comics would've shown otherwise if not and 2) Faith only trusts men who are not trying to sleep with her. She has the default "all men want one thing" but she got emotionally close to the Mayor only after he made it clear to her his interest in her wasn't sexual; same thing with Angel. She usually dumps those she sleeps with - Wood tried to change that and it seemed she was more open to a real relationship, but in S8 we see it didn't last.
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Old January 27 2012, 08:06 PM   #132
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Re: Once More, With Feeling: my big Buffy/Angel canon rewatch/reread/r

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saturn5 wrote: View Post
I did read season 8 and Faith and Giles are finally a duo although it's left unclear if their relationship is platonic or not
Did you read it to the end?

I'm pretty sure it's platonic since 1) the comics would've shown otherwise if not and 2) Faith only trusts men who are not trying to sleep with her. She has the default "all men want one thing" but she got emotionally close to the Mayor only after he made it clear to her his interest in her wasn't sexual; same thing with Angel. She usually dumps those she sleeps with - Wood tried to change that and it seemed she was more open to a real relationship, but in S8 we see it didn't last.
Yes you make a good point although it would be a nice touch if we later found out Faith was pregnant with Giles' baby etc
I always thought it was a shame we didn't get to explore more of Faith/Woods in the comics although I'm a Fuffer at heart
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Old January 27 2012, 10:10 PM   #133
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Re: Once More, With Feeling: my big Buffy/Angel canon rewatch/reread/r

saturn5 wrote: View Post
DevilEyes wrote: View Post
saturn5 wrote: View Post
I did read season 8 and Faith and Giles are finally a duo although it's left unclear if their relationship is platonic or not
Did you read it to the end?

I'm pretty sure it's platonic since 1) the comics would've shown otherwise if not and 2) Faith only trusts men who are not trying to sleep with her. She has the default "all men want one thing" but she got emotionally close to the Mayor only after he made it clear to her his interest in her wasn't sexual; same thing with Angel. She usually dumps those she sleeps with - Wood tried to change that and it seemed she was more open to a real relationship, but in S8 we see it didn't last.
Yes you make a good point although it would be a nice touch if we later found out Faith was pregnant with Giles' baby etc
I always thought it was a shame we didn't get to explore more of Faith/Woods in the comics although I'm a Fuffer at heart
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Old January 27 2012, 10:16 PM   #134
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Old January 27 2012, 10:23 PM   #135
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Re: Once More, With Feeling: my big Buffy/Angel canon rewatch/reread/r

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