Why are the TOS movies better then the TNG movies?

[CaptainMatt]

Mooch wrote:

---

If you want to know why the TOS movies were better, just look at the plots: the stakes were higher!

TMP - stopping Earth from being destroyed
TWOK - stopping the Genesis weapon
TSFS - ok, not very epic except for getting Spock back
TVH - saving the whole universe
TFF - Enterprise getting hijacked, kinda interesting
TUC - peace between Federation and Klingons

To be fair, TVH was NOT about saving the whole universe, rather Earth. The remainder of the universe was presumably safe from the Whale Probe.

[Skywalker]

And really, in the grand scheme of things, Earth isn't that important.

[Mooch]

CaptainMatt wrote:

---

To be fair, TVH was NOT about saving the whole universe, rather Earth. The remainder of the universe was presumably safe from the Whale Probe.

Yeah, you're right...for some reason I was thinking the timeline got changed somewhow...obviously I haven't watched the movies recently enough!

Skywalker wrote:

---

And really, in the grand scheme of things, Earth isn't that important.

Well, it's fairly important to the target audience

[MacLeod]

It might also help that at least TVH and TUC came out in signifigant anniversary years. i.e 20th and 25th. In some respects some of the classic movies where more of classic story.

TWOK is similar to Moby Dick. FC had elements of this as well.

TUC at least at the time could draw parallels to real world events. The collapse of the USSR. Praxis = Chernobyl.

[CaptainMatt]

Mooch wrote:

---

Yeah, you're right...for some reason I was thinking the timeline got changed somewhow...obviously I haven't watched the movies recently enough!

No problem, we all struggle to find time watching our favorite movies!

[Maurice]

Mooch wrote:

---

If you want to know why the TOS movies were better, just look at the plots: the stakes were higher!

TMP - stopping Earth from being destroyed
TWOK - stopping the Genesis weapon
TSFS - ok, not very epic except for getting Spock back
TVH - stopping Earth from being destroyed
TFF - Enterprise getting hijacked, kinda interesting
TUC - peace between Federation and Klingons

GEN - stopping a guy from destroying a planet no one's ever heard of
FC - stopping Earth from being destroyed - that's why this one is the good one!
IN - saving some aliens on a planet no one's ever heard of
NEM - I honestly can't remember...Picard's clone wanted to kill him or something? I think the biggest problem with this one is that they cut out all the character developement bits and the plot didn't make any sense

Let's try that again:

TMP - save the Earth
TWOK - stop a madman from using a single shot superweapon that could whack one planet
TSFS - save comrades
TVH - save Earth
TFF - deal with a religious fanatic
TUC - avert a war
GEN - save a planet with millions of inhabitants
FC - save the Earth (again) and the Federation (presumably)
INS - keep some people from being relocated against their consent
NEM - save Earth...again
ST09 - save Earth (yet yet yet again) and the Federation

When you look at it that way, the scope isn't the issue.

[Skywalker]

Mooch wrote:

---

Well, it's fairly important to the target audience

Unless the Enterprise is actually saving the Earth that I live on, I don't really care. I'd rather see them do something else.

[Argus Skyhawk]

Mooch wrote:

---

If you want to know why the TOS movies were better, just look at the plots: the stakes were higher!

TMP - stopping Earth from being destroyed
TWOK - stopping the Genesis weapon
TSFS - ok, not very epic except for getting Spock back
TVH - stopping Earth from being destroyed
TFF - Enterprise getting hijacked, kinda interesting
TUC - peace between Federation and Klingons

GEN - stopping a guy from destroying a planet no one's ever heard of
FC - stopping Earth from being destroyed - that's why this one is the good one!
IN - saving some aliens on a planet no one's ever heard of
NEM - I honestly can't remember...Picard's clone wanted to kill him or something? I think the biggest problem with this one is that they cut out all the character developement bits and the plot didn't make any sense

Even though some fine movies have been about saving the Earth, I usually prefer ones that are a little smaller and more personal in scope than that. To me there's something too imbalanced about a handful of characters rescuing billions of people.

[CaptainMatt]

You would not like The War of the Worlds with Tom Cruise, then....

[JarodRussell]

CaptainMatt wrote:

---

You would not like The War of the Worlds with Tom Cruise, then....

But Tom Cruise didn't save the world in that one.

[ssosmcin]

Mooch wrote:

---

TSFS - ok, not very epic except for getting Spock back

Not very epic? Saving Spock and preventing the Klingons from getting the Genesis device (in other words The Atomic Bomb) are pretty high stakes. Add the destruction of Enterprise, the death of David, the sacrifice of their careers, and the chaotic breaking up of the Genesis planet and you can see that Star Trek III is actually one of the most epic films in the series.

[ssosmcin]

I think it's all really been said, but these are my thoughts.

1) the length of time between the final episode of TOS and their first movie making it a true reunion each time we saw them. Each movie was an event.

2) Character development and change, since each TOS film was pretty much seen as "the last". TNG films were always seen as an ongoing series, so whatever change they made was reset or made with an eye to that project series (Data's chip being negated and the new Enterprise being introduced). Otherwise, characters started out off model and the change was coming back to the status quo (Picard 3 out of 4 movies). Only TVH had the reset button after they tied up the loose end of "the trilogy."

3) That fact that TOS was an action adventure show and TNG was a low key sci-fi drama. TOS didn't have to change its format much to fit on the big screen (with the exception of TMP I guess). TNG became something totally contrary to what it once was.

4) TOS has three main characters and four supporting. Their films had the same recipe. TNG had seven main characters, but the movies only focused on two or three of them. Beverly might as well have been Uhura for all the screen time she got.

Whether or not someone feels TOS movies are "better" than TNG films is all opinion. The real issue is that the original series movies were truer to the concept of their original series than TNG's films were. You felt like the TOS movies were a natural progression from what came before, while TNG had to change to fit the demands of the big screen and big box office. When we saw The Wrath of Khan, we caught up with crew 15 or so years older; Kirk was depressed over his birthday, seeing his life mostly gone by and not having a command - mid-life crisis ahoy. When we watched First Contact, we saw Picard totally different from the man we knew only two years earlier; he met the Borg twice after his assimilation and didn't regress into a revenge filled maniac. In FC, he was freaking out over lines being drawn there, breaking his little ships and calling Worf a coward. He was wildly out of character for no logical reason other than to give Patrick Stewart an awkward Shatner moment (and really, Shatner was better that this sort of thing). Instead of the movies being consistent extensions of the series, they were totally separate entities.

Finally, with two other Star Trek shows on TV, the enthusiasm for paying to see yet another 23rd century based movie was severely diminished.

[CaptainMatt]

I felt Picard's rage in FC was costly but beliveable. The Borg appearances in TNG between TBOBW and the feature film First Contact were largely and wisely ignroed for the sake of dramatic license for this particular story.

[MasuPu'a]

CaptainMatt wrote:

---

I felt Picard's rage in FC was costly but beliveable. The Borg appearances in TNG between TBOBW and the feature film First Contact were largely and wisely ignroed for the sake of dramatic license for this particular story.

I thought it was understandable to see Picard so upset. Yes, he's a pretty cool-headed captain, but everyone cracks under pressure (remember the episode where he was tortured by the Cardassians?). So it is believable to think that Picard has kept all this pent-up rage and guilt over the Borg using him to attack the Federation, and in FC it finally comes out.

[Maurice]

ssosmcin wrote:

---

...preventing the Klingons from getting the Genesis device (in other words The Atomic Bomb) are pretty high stakes.

The Klingons murdered the scientist (David) they needed to get Genesis, so the only way Kirk and Co. stopped the Klingons was by showing up so that Kruge took hostages and killed one. That was tragic and wholly accidental side-effect of their arrival.