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Old January 17 2012, 08:21 PM   #16
Anwar
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Re: Thoughts on merging/melding B5 and ST technology

Hmm, like I said xenophobia doesn't make a lot of sense since it was the aliens helping that Earth recovered as fast as it did from WWIII.

But I can see the crew being xenophobic could be a plot element of the internal feuding between the Xenophobic "Stay to Earth" guys and the more open-minded ones: Once the Government decided to approve the deeper exploration missions the Xenophobes pulled strings to make sure some of the ships would be crewed by their own choices, with the potential hope being that their exploits would either result in anything they find being for Earth's advantage and Earth alone, or negative results which they could use to shut down the Deep-Space mission altogether.

I'd say go with the Vulcans, because the Minbari are too isolationist at that point. The Vulcans can be a "failed experiment" of the Vorlons: They taught the violent but powerful Vulcan people the way of logic and control and banished the original Vulcans who disagreed with this (the Romulans) meaning the Romulans are closer to "True" Vulcans than present-day Vulcans. But the Vulcans' couldn't be totally brought under control as Vorlon Vassals like the Minbari so they withdrew their support and left them be. The Minbari and Vulcans have a sort of "estranged brothers" relationship as a result.

The Andorians should be the toughest military guys on the block, perhaps the Narn are in a junior alliance with them (the Narn are weak partners) and still have their Cold War with the Vulcans.

This would be the Vulcan impetus for helping Earth, they don't want them to become Andorian Vassals as well.

How to fit the Romulans into the shared Vulcan/Minbari history...hmmm.
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Old January 17 2012, 08:33 PM   #17
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Re: Thoughts on merging/melding B5 and ST technology

One of the reasons I like the idea of the Minbari being Earth's 'first contact' is that I could then use the Vulcan/Andorian conflict/cold war as the 'first contact' opportunity for both races, which would help cement Earth as a major player in interstellar politics and whatnot and make for a bit of an interesting transition to both the Vulcans and Andorians being part of the founding of the UFP, since the Enterprise and her crew would be a key player in the cessation of hostilities and animosities between the Vulcans and Andorians.

I did just think of a way to offset the Minbari's technological superiority with where I'd like Earth to be, which is that the Minbari keep most of their technological advances secret.

I hadn't figured out a way to bring the Vorlons into things, but I do like the idea of them taking the place of the Preservers, Progenitors, and the aliens from "The Chase", and also sort of filling the same role - eventually - of the Organians, albeit much more 'behind-the'scenes'. I could also tie them into the reasoning behind the Minbari keeping most of their technological advances secret.
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Old January 18 2012, 12:28 AM   #18
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Re: Thoughts on merging/melding B5 and ST technology

Skywalker wrote: View Post
Regarding shivkala's last point, as a fan of fighters (both real and fictional), I vote for keeping the Starfuries.
I do, too. I just wanted to point out that it would be a drastically different type of ship Starfleet has if you account for fighters. That being said, in addition to how much I love the Starfury design, I think having fighters allows a writer to use more creativity when detailing space battles. Star Trek battles between two ships are rather limiting, whereas two ships, plus their fighters allows you to add details about the capital ships and the fighters.

DigificWriter wrote: View Post
Since I'm essentially building a new universe that melds the two franchises together under the 'Star Trek' moniker, I have the flexibility to redesign/retool all of the various races' technological capabilities at will. The initial idea I had was to make pre-UFP Earth ships - with the exception of the Enterprise - more on the technological level of the Earth Alliance from B5, except for the addition of gravity tech, warp capability, and primative shielding, phaser, and torpedo tech, but what I could do is make all of the Earth ships besides the Enterprise almost identical, tech-wise, to the B5 Earth Alliance and make the Enrerprise's tech more similar to what we are familiar with from ST, which could help distinguish it as something special.
The Enterprise could be something similar to the Whitestars and the Excalibur, a joint collaboration using know-how from the First Ones and retro-engineering the rest based on what's known about First One technology.

Anwar wrote: View Post
Hmm, like I said xenophobia doesn't make a lot of sense since it was the aliens helping that Earth recovered as fast as it did from WWIII.

But I can see the crew being xenophobic could be a plot element of the internal feuding between the Xenophobic "Stay to Earth" guys and the more open-minded ones: Once the Government decided to approve the deeper exploration missions the Xenophobes pulled strings to make sure some of the ships would be crewed by their own choices, with the potential hope being that their exploits would either result in anything they find being for Earth's advantage and Earth alone, or negative results which they could use to shut down the Deep-Space mission altogether.
Or, have rumors spread of alien influence on the part of parties such as the Eastern Coalition. Of course, you could have that being true, as almost assuredly, agents of the Shadows would be involved, sowing the seeds for the return of their masters. Then, you could have a group that feels wary of any alien help.

I'd say go with the Vulcans, because the Minbari are too isolationist at that point. The Vulcans can be a "failed experiment" of the Vorlons: They taught the violent but powerful Vulcan people the way of logic and control and banished the original Vulcans who disagreed with this (the Romulans) meaning the Romulans are closer to "True" Vulcans than present-day Vulcans. But the Vulcans' couldn't be totally brought under control as Vorlon Vassals like the Minbari so they withdrew their support and left them be. The Minbari and Vulcans have a sort of "estranged brothers" relationship as a result.
Fascinating.

The Andorians should be the toughest military guys on the block, perhaps the Narn are in a junior alliance with them (the Narn are weak partners) and still have their Cold War with the Vulcans.
This might work better than the Narn being like the Cardassians. The Narn would be more akin to the Bajorans than the Cardassians.
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Old January 18 2012, 01:07 AM   #19
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Re: Thoughts on merging/melding B5 and ST technology

The Centauri's fall from being the top dogs could be the result of a war with the Andorians, which would further explain the Narn being allied with them. Then the question is what happens to the Andorians when the Narn/Centauri war happens, since the Andorians are a Core founder of the Federation.
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Old January 18 2012, 02:38 AM   #20
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Re: Thoughts on merging/melding B5 and ST technology

shivkala wrote: View Post
Skywalker wrote: View Post
Regarding shivkala's last point, as a fan of fighters (both real and fictional), I vote for keeping the Starfuries.
I do, too. I just wanted to point out that it would be a drastically different type of ship Starfleet has if you account for fighters. That being said, in addition to how much I love the Starfury design, I think having fighters allows a writer to use more creativity when detailing space battles. Star Trek battles between two ships are rather limiting, whereas two ships, plus their fighters allows you to add details about the capital ships and the fighters.
I'm not sure how to incorporate 'snubfighters' outside of a base (i.e. space station) situation, but will keep the idea in mind and see if anything comes to me.

DigificWriter wrote: View Post
Since I'm essentially building a new universe that melds the two franchises together under the 'Star Trek' moniker, I have the flexibility to redesign/retool all of the various races' technological capabilities at will. The initial idea I had was to make pre-UFP Earth ships - with the exception of the Enterprise - more on the technological level of the Earth Alliance from B5, except for the addition of gravity tech, warp capability, and primative shielding, phaser, and torpedo tech, but what I could do is make all of the Earth ships besides the Enterprise almost identical, tech-wise, to the B5 Earth Alliance and make the Enrerprise's tech more similar to what we are familiar with from ST, which could help distinguish it as something special.
The Enterprise could be something similar to the Whitestars and the Excalibur, a joint collaboration using know-how from the First Ones and retro-engineering the rest based on what's known about First One technology.
Having the Enterprise be the partial result of technological cooperation is another reason to have the Minbari be Earth's 'first contact' instead of the Vulcans, because it sets a precedent that can later be referenced were I to adapt B5's storyline for a series of future spin-off stories.


Or, have rumors spread of alien influence on the part of parties such as the Eastern Coalition. Of course, you could have that being true, as almost assuredly, agents of the Shadows would be involved, sowing the seeds for the return of their masters. Then, you could have a group that feels wary of any alien help.
At this stage, I'm not even sure if I'll get to adapting B5's storyline for this new hybrid universe, although having the Shadows in the background exerting their influence regardless might be a neat angle from which to explore the whole Romulan War storyline.
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Old January 18 2012, 02:55 AM   #21
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Re: Thoughts on merging/melding B5 and ST technology

The Shadows are neat because you can plant the seed without referencing them directly. That way, the germ of the story is there if you want to use it, but is easily ignored or forgotten if you don't want it.
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Old January 18 2012, 03:49 AM   #22
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Re: Thoughts on merging/melding B5 and ST technology

shivkala wrote: View Post
The Shadows are neat because you can plant the seed without referencing them directly. That way, the germ of the story is there if you want to use it, but is easily ignored or forgotten if you don't want it.
You're right, but the idea hadn't really occurred to me before you suggested/mentioned it.


As an aside, the more I think about the idea of the Minbari being Earth's 'first contact' instead of the Vulcans, the more I'm liking it.

However, I can't decide if it makes sense to have a Minbari 'observer' present on the Enterprise as part of its crew as it undertakes its mission of exploration. Anybody got thoughts on that?
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Old January 18 2012, 03:56 AM   #23
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Re: Thoughts on merging/melding B5 and ST technology

But the Minbari are pretty isolationist. What reason would they have for sending a scout out near Earth when the warp ship goes by?

At leaset with Vulcans, they're not that far from Earth so the odds are better of contact.
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Old January 18 2012, 04:20 AM   #24
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Re: Thoughts on merging/melding B5 and ST technology

Anwar wrote: View Post
But the Minbari are pretty isolationist. What reason would they have for sending a scout out near Earth when the warp ship goes by?

At leaset with Vulcans, they're not that far from Earth so the odds are better of contact.
If the Minbari are going to be Earth's 'first contact', I see the following scenario playing out: the Minbari detect Cochrane's warp flight from their homeworld and, for their own reasons (the Vorlons - with whom they are 'in-tune' - basically telling them that Earth is important and that they [the Minbari] need to initiate contact), send a ship to Earth to establish first contact, which happens weeks - if not months - after Cochrane's warp flight.
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Old January 19 2012, 12:58 AM   #25
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Re: Thoughts on merging/melding B5 and ST technology

I can see a ship of Minbari Rangers being Earth's first contact. The Rangers were less isolationist and adding some Rangers to the crew might work.
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Old January 19 2012, 02:52 AM   #26
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Re: Thoughts on merging/melding B5 and ST technology

How would the Vulcans respond to this, the Minbari gaining a new ally so close to their Homeworld? The Andorians, with their hostilities with the Vulcans? Would they try to court the Humans away from the Minbari, or try to establish better relations with the Minbari?

Do you want to run with the idea of the Andorians being the ones who ended Centauri dominance and the Narn allied with them?
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Old January 19 2012, 03:36 AM   #27
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Re: Thoughts on merging/melding B5 and ST technology

shivkala wrote: View Post
I can see a ship of Minbari Rangers being Earth's first contact. The Rangers were less isolationist and adding some Rangers to the crew might work.
I really like the idea of the Minbari sending Rangers to facilitate first contact with humanity, and has cemented for me the idea of having a Minbari as part of the Enterprise's crew compliment, with said Minbari being both a Ranger and an official ambassador.

Anwar wrote: View Post
How would the Vulcans respond to this, the Minbari gaining a new ally so close to their Homeworld? The Andorians, with their hostilities with the Vulcans? Would they try to court the Humans away from the Minbari, or try to establish better relations with the Minbari?

Do you want to run with the idea of the Andorians being the ones who ended Centauri dominance and the Narn allied with them?
Since I see the Vulcans being very preoccupied with their conflict with the Andorians, I didn't see Vulcan/Human first contact happening until after the Enterprise began her mission of exploration. I do think it would be interesting, though, for the Minbari to be basically using humanity's desire to explore the wider universe as a way to facilitate the establishment of a unified universe, which the Vorlons want to have in place should the Shadows ever come back, and the Vulcans - being the somewhat emotional beings that they were in the 22nd Century - reacting negatively to the idea of the Minbari and a ship full of humans 'interfering' in their affairs, especially with regards to the Andorians.

Regarding the Narn, I really see them being more akin to the Orions and the Ferengi, since I think it fits their reputation as arms dealers and a 'neutral' power who'll basically curry the favor of anyone so long as it can help them establish themselves as an interstellar power.

I see the Centauri being the kind of people who've pissed off a lot of other alien races because of their aggressive hunt for territory, so it might be interesting to explore the idea of conflict breaking out between them and the Andorians (since I like the idea of the Andorians being the universe's biggest and baddest warrior society), with the Narn - being the Centauri-haters that they are - forming an alliance of sorts with the Andorians in order to 'stir the pot', as it were.
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Old January 19 2012, 04:57 AM   #28
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Re: Thoughts on merging/melding B5 and ST technology

It's repeatedly stated in B5 that something happened 100 years prior that led to the Centauri Empire becoming more of a remnant than anything else.

Perhaps it was the Vulcans who blew them back, rather than the Andorians? Might be a nice twist that serves as a "Don't **** with these guys" establishment.

Given how both the Romulans and Centauri have Imperialistic societies, maybe it was a secret alliance between both of them that led the Vulcans to downgrade the Centauri Empire and keep the Romulans away.
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Old January 19 2012, 05:49 AM   #29
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Re: Thoughts on merging/melding B5 and ST technology

I see the decline of the Centauri Republic being caused by them laying claim to more territory than they could hold on to, but I kind of like the idea of the Vulcans maybe being one of the civilizations who took territory from the Centauri. It would be an interesting nuance to their society and characterization.
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Old January 21 2012, 09:06 PM   #30
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Re: Thoughts on merging/melding B5 and ST technology

I've sat down and tried to think about how to incorporate 'snubfighters' into this new universe, but haven't been able to come up with any satisfactory ideas.

As an aside, I've been spending the last few days thinking about whether or not I want to explore the beginnings of Earth's exploration and the founding of the UFP in this hybrid universe, or, prompted by some of the discussion in this thread, I should just go full-tilt into an adaptation of B5's storyline, but modified somewhat to fit this new hybrid universe I've created.

If I do end up going with the latter idea, I want to give B5 - the station - its own permanently assigned starship - or series of starships - but am not sure what the best class(es) for this ship or ships would be, so suggestions would be appreciated on that front.

Suggestions on possible member worlds for the UFP - besides Andor(ia), Tellar, Vulcan, Earth, and Minbar - would be also appreciated, as would suggestions for member worlds for my version of the 'League of Non-Aligned Worlds' just in case I do decide to go with the idea of doing a straight-up 'trekkified' version of B5.
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