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Old January 14 2012, 12:44 AM   #496
Anwar
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Re: Does It Get Better???

You_Will_Fail wrote: View Post
That wouldn't change the number of stories that we could have gotten
I'd say it would, you take away the exploration elements and you lose like 50% of storytelling possibilities that come with things like investigating space phenomena, abandoned worlds or unknown distress calls.

All of which would be ignored or not done under Maquis rules.

since the ship often needed to stop and get supplies/trade and seek out new technologies/wormholes etc anyway.
No exploring means no seeking out new anythings.

They just would have taken a newer, fresher, more interesting approach to everything that would have helped "Voyager" stand out more as a show on its own and not a TNG clone as so many people call it.
More like Anti-Trek. Instead of exploring, they run from everything. Instead of helping folks in need, they ignore them because its "not their problem". Nevermind that the Maquis would know better than anyone what its' like to be abandoned or at a powerful enemy's mercy.

Hell, even in Farscape they were just a bunch of escaped prisoners on a stolen prison transport and even THEY did "investigate weird stuff" stories without anyone complaining.

The thing is, they could have easily maintained both the Maquis pragmatism (though I still think the Maquis weren't the right choice for the show) AND the exploration elements. If they didn't know where they were, or how to get home it totally justifies all the random exploring even for the Maquis. They can't fault Starfleet for spending time on exploring if they don't know how to get home anyways, random exploring would be their best bet to go home in that case.
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Old January 14 2012, 01:00 AM   #497
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Re: Does It Get Better???

I wasn't that bothered with them exploring the occasional planet or anomaly tbh and I don't think it really happened that often. I do think there should have been more episodes where they actively seek out new technologies to help their journey however. Voyager should have been rocking some awesome new alien technologies by the time we got to season 7 but unfortunately the ship didn't change whatsoever except for the astrometrics lab. And that basically brings us back to the problem of Voyager never changing despite its unique situation. We started off well with Neelix's canteen and then nothing. I've always thought that if they'd got rid of the holodeck stuff then the ship could have had a couple of cool additions and sets to provide recreation for the crew - maybe a permanent hydroponics garden (a good place for Kes to hang out) and some other recreational facilities beyond that bland, grey, military looking canteen we got. Voyager really was lacking color.
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Old January 14 2012, 01:06 AM   #498
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Who took over aeroponics after Kes left?

Was that busy work?

Did Janeway decide to hide her down in Cargobay Two after an unfortunate conversation with her magic mirror?

Neelix taking her lung is like the huntsman taking Snow's heart, and Harry is sort of a dwarf and....
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Old January 14 2012, 01:17 AM   #499
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Re: Does It Get Better???

You_Will_Fail wrote: View Post
I wasn't that bothered with them exploring the occasional planet or anomaly tbh and I don't think it really happened that often. I do think there should have been more episodes where they actively seek out new technologies to help their journey however. Voyager should have been rocking some awesome new alien technologies by the time we got to season 7 but unfortunately the ship didn't change whatsoever except for the astrometrics lab. And that basically brings us back to the problem of Voyager never changing despite its unique situation. We started off well with Neelix's canteen and then nothing. I've always thought that if they'd got rid of the holodeck stuff then the ship could have had a couple of cool additions and sets to provide recreation for the crew - maybe a permanent hydroponics garden (a good place for Kes to hang out) and some other recreational facilities beyond that bland, grey, military looking canteen we got. Voyager really was lacking color.
That was a budgetary thing more than a plot choice. They had a lot of leftover props and sets from TNG's holodeck stories, which made it easier to use them. Making all these new sets for the ship, commerce planet sets, repair stations/space drydocks would've broken the budget they had.

That's also why they didn't change the ship model either, it meant they could keep using stock footage since CGI alterations would've been really expensive back then as well. Year of Hell was as far as they were willing to go because of how expensive just doing it for two episodes was.

If they'd done what Berman wanted and waited until DS9 was done, they'd have started off with superior CGI tech (instead of starting off with physical models) and have plenty of leftover DS9 props and stuff from the TNG movies to use. And also they'd have had enough time to iron out VOY's conceptual problems (and it did have them).
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Old January 14 2012, 01:51 AM   #500
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Re: Does It Get Better???

tighr wrote: View Post
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tighr wrote: View Post
Or more like Crewman Harren, from season 6 episode Good Shepard?
Sure...?

I don't remember that one too well.
He was the introvert who spent all of his time on Deck 15. The only reason he signed on to Voyager was so he could get one years experience in order to apply for an advanced degree in Cosmology, but just his luck that Voyager gets sucked into the Delta Quadrant one week later. Suffice it to say, he was quite pissed that he was going to spend the rest of his life on a ship he didn't want to be on in the first place.
So I'd be the complete polar opposite of that guy.
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Old January 14 2012, 02:19 AM   #501
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Anwar wrote: View Post
That was a budgetary thing more than a plot choice.
I don't really but that, we saw some great sets in the course of Voyager. Sprucing up the ship and adding a new set or two would not have broken the bank.
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Old January 14 2012, 02:46 AM   #502
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Re: Does It Get Better???

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I think anyone who claims the Maquis were just defending their homes is forgetting that they also openly attacked both Cardassian and Federation ships and weren't above poisoning planets to get their way.
The Maquis that blew up Cardassian ships were Chakotay's Maquis. They were defending their homes because in "Maquis pt 1 & 2" we discovered that the Cardassians were supplying their citizens with weapons to terrorize the the Federation colonists left behind. At that time the Federation still considered the Maquis Federation citizens and was willing to pardon them as long as they stopped the hostilities. Remember, Sisko's friend Cal told him the Maquis had no beef with Starfleet/Federation and asked they be left alone because they didn't want to end up fighting their friends. Chakotay's Maquis were not enemies of the Federation.(or at least didn't want to be) Starfleet had to get involved because Cardassia told them if they didn't, they would and they'd kill them all. Remember officers like O'Brian sympathized with this group of Maquis.

It was Eddingtons leadership of the Maquis that made them go out and attack Federation ships and poison planets. He was due to his escalating matters is what caused Cardassia to seek out the help of the Dominion. To Dominion promised to kill all Maquis in return, Cardassia would become members of the Dominion. Nobody in Staerfleet sympathized with Eddingtons tactics and his direction of the Maquis. Due to his actions, his Maquis weren't welcomed or pardoned.

There are two different divisions of the Maquis, Chakotay's and Eddingtons.
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Old January 14 2012, 02:56 AM   #503
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Anwar wrote: View Post
You_Will_Fail wrote: View Post
I wasn't that bothered with them exploring the occasional planet or anomaly tbh and I don't think it really happened that often. I do think there should have been more episodes where they actively seek out new technologies to help their journey however. Voyager should have been rocking some awesome new alien technologies by the time we got to season 7 but unfortunately the ship didn't change whatsoever except for the astrometrics lab. And that basically brings us back to the problem of Voyager never changing despite its unique situation. We started off well with Neelix's canteen and then nothing. I've always thought that if they'd got rid of the holodeck stuff then the ship could have had a couple of cool additions and sets to provide recreation for the crew - maybe a permanent hydroponics garden (a good place for Kes to hang out) and some other recreational facilities beyond that bland, grey, military looking canteen we got. Voyager really was lacking color.
That was a budgetary thing more than a plot choice. They had a lot of leftover props and sets from TNG's holodeck stories, which made it easier to use them. Making all these new sets for the ship, commerce planet sets, repair stations/space drydocks would've broken the budget they had.

That's also why they didn't change the ship model either, it meant they could keep using stock footage since CGI alterations would've been really expensive back then as well. Year of Hell was as far as they were willing to go because of how expensive just doing it for two episodes was.

If they'd done what Berman wanted and waited until DS9 was done, they'd have started off with superior CGI tech (instead of starting off with physical models) and have plenty of leftover DS9 props and stuff from the TNG movies to use. And also they'd have had enough time to iron out VOY's conceptual problems (and it did have them).
Don't forget they had to rebuild the bridge set after it caught fire in between s3 and 4, I think it was.

Plus, "YOH" was a sweeps week eps., in which studios are allowed to spend a bigger budget on eps. because that when sponsors are shopping for hit show to advertise on. Season premiers, mid-season and season finales are the when the biggest amount of the shows budget is spent. If you look at the DVD's, you'll notice all the higher budgeted eps. are always clumped together. Look at when DS9 used it's budget on those FX space battles. Between DS9 & Voy., you'll see the pattern.

"Nothing Human", further proof of reusing an old set from DS9. Besides the DVD extras on TNG DVD's explain how many of the sets they us are reused sets and props to save on budgets. Every time their in a cave, it's the same cave in every series.


Yep, budget is everything on a show with such high production already such as Trek. The lighting bill on DS9 just to light up the Pormenade and Quarks alone must have been though the roof considering they film for 14 to 16 hours a day!!!
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Old January 14 2012, 03:19 AM   #504
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Re: Does It Get Better???

exodus wrote: View Post
Don't forget they had to rebuild the bridge set after it caught fire in between s3 and 4, I think it was.
Insurance almost certainly paid for that; if it didn't, I'd still be surprised if those costs were charged against the series budget.

The lighting bill on DS9 just to light up the Pormenade and Quarks alone must have been though the roof considering they film for 14 to 16 hours a day!!!
I'm sure the average lighting cost of the series was no more expensive than the average lighting bill incurred by other Paramount productions each day. The lighting of Hollywood sets -- any set -- is rather elaborate.
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Old January 14 2012, 03:35 AM   #505
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Re: Does It Get Better???

stj wrote: View Post
I only know of two DS9 fans who've reviewed the complete Voyager, Jammer and The GodBen (I think I've spaced the latter correctly, if not, sorry.) Both refused to even write a review of the episode. I can only speculate about the reasons.
Jammer wrote a 1,500 word review of the episode. Come on. It's not hard to find.

And it's TheGodBen, no spaces. Since you obviously went to the trouble to look up his review thread (and thanks for doing that; his three word review gives the episode as much effort as it's worth) it shouldn't be that hard to just copy and paste the name.
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Old January 14 2012, 03:41 AM   #506
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Harvey wrote: View Post
I'm sure the average lighting cost of the series was no more expensive than the average lighting bill incurred by other Paramount productions each day. The lighting of Hollywood sets -- any set -- is rather elaborate.
Can't say for sure, honestly.
I know on screen, not including the production lighting, it's one of the most impressive.

However, I think the main point still stands that budget controls allot of what happens in production.
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Old January 14 2012, 03:59 AM   #507
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Oh, certainly. However, Trek (especially once you get past the early seasons of Star Trek: The Next Generation) was not a low-budget affair for Paramount by any means. And if you're looking at where the money is going, electrical costs are a minor expense in the scheme of things.

To compare, since I have the actual production budget in front of me, the total electrical cost of Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country was $432,911. That's the total cost of all the electrical expenses (lighting and otherwise) of a $29,157,511 feature film on a 54 day shooting schedule.

The television shows, in contrast, shot episodes on a 7-day shooting schedule, with a much smaller budget. Assuming that you're spending the same amount of money per day as a feature (and this would likely be less, since feature films usually have much more elaborate lighting and camera set-ups than episodic television) that's about $50,000 per episode. That's also a more or less fixed cost, since sets always need to be lit, so it's not really going to have an effect on other budget lines.

...

That was not the most efficient way to arrive at the point. Apologies.
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Old January 14 2012, 04:00 AM   #508
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Re: Does It Get Better???

You_Will_Fail wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
That was a budgetary thing more than a plot choice.
I don't really but that, we saw some great sets in the course of Voyager. Sprucing up the ship and adding a new set or two would not have broken the bank.
I mean space station sets and Planetside sets more than sets within Voyager itself.

Some of those sets you're talking about may have already been re-used ones to begin with (they re-used stuff from FC and INS). All the Borg sets were from FC, and the big holo-museum from "Living Witness" was a re-use of an INS set.

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Old January 14 2012, 04:16 AM   #509
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Well space-station and planet sets are expensive and its understandable why they wouldn't have new ones all the time. But a couple of permanent new sets on Voyager to make the ship feel more alive and show the crew interacting more would be nice.
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Old January 14 2012, 04:20 AM   #510
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Re: Does It Get Better???

To be fair, during season four, they added a major set and did a major expansion of a standing set: the astrometrics lab and the cargo bay with the borg alcoves. Still, neither of those were as impressive as Ten Forward or The Promenade, built/expanded during the second seasons of TNG and DS9.
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