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Old January 12 2012, 10:07 PM   #436
Anwar
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Re: Does It Get Better???

AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
I just don't find it plausible that the ship would look brand new after all the battles it's fought and all it's gone through. It should be bruised and scarred (both the interior and the exterior) and supplies should be running out.
In Farscape, Moya goes through nasty stuff and it never changes or shows battle damage. Only once in the entire show do they have to take it to a specialist for repair work.

The crew should be down in the dumps and depressed. After all, all of their opportunities to get home have been foiled by their very own captain.
Deep-Space missions are supposed to last for years (Kirk's was 5 years) away from home and out of touch with Mission Control. And both Kirk and Picard have been in their same situations and yet both managed to return home okay. No reason to get that depressed when at least 5 years away from home is what they signed on for, and they know that this isn't some impossible situation.

And Janeway didn't mess up their ways home, that's all BS VOY Haters spout around.

A fight for control of the ship would be realistic, especially considering that the Maquis aren't as disciplined and principled as the Starfleet officers.
Agreed, but the Fleeters outnumber them 3-1 if not more.

I could easily see Maquis murdering Starfleet officers in their sleep.
This, not so much. Why would the Maquis do this? They weren't hardcore arch-enemies of the Feds, their enemies were the Cardassians. They didn't even have really serious differences with the Feds in terms of how they operated, since their own leader was an Ex-Fleeter who brought most of his experience to them.

This would also be a great opportunity to examine the Starfleet officers; how do they respond to the Maquis threat? Do they negotiate and make peace with the Maquis like they have been trained to do, or do they throw their principles aside and fight for their life?
But the Maquis and Feds weren't really enemies in the first place, and the local Maquis Leader (Chakotay) WAS an Ex-Fleeter.

He wasn't even a traitor like Eddington, he formally resigned and THEN joined the Maquis, and he didn't betray secrets or operations in the process. Or go out of his way to antagonize the Feds.

If anything, Chakotay would've been one of the first ones to just say "Look people, we're stuck out here through no fault of anyone. These guys are willing to let bygones be bygones, and frankly they're the only thing we have in the DQ close to a friendly face. We can either work together to try and survive, or we can just ask them to drop us off on the next commerce world, and I'd rather we all stayed here on an advanced Starship."

Yes, this should have all been addressed in the show itself but the bottom line is that the Maquis were never going to be truly adversarial to the Feds and whatever tensions between them would realistically be resolved in 1-2 seasons. Any more than that is just crazy.
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Old January 12 2012, 10:36 PM   #437
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Anwar wrote: View Post
In Farscape, Moya goes through nasty stuff and it never changes or shows battle damage. Only once in the entire show do they have to take it to a specialist for repair work.
That's simply not true. One case immediately comes to mind. Late in season two, the ship is seriously burned to kill some nasty critters on board. Several episodes into season three, we revisit that part of the ship -- and it's still burned.

Deep-Space missions are supposed to last for years (Kirk's was 5 years) away from home and out of touch with Mission Control.
What's this based on again? As I indicated elsewhere in the forum, that was never the intention of the original Star Trek. That was the intention of Star Trek: The Next Generation, but the premise was abandoned early in the first season, after barely being mentioned.

But the Maquis and Feds weren't really enemies in the first place, and the local Maquis Leader (Chakotay) WAS an Ex-Fleeter.

He wasn't even a traitor like Eddington, he formally resigned and THEN joined the Maquis, and he didn't betray secrets or operations in the process. Or go out of his way to antagonize the Feds.

If anything, Chakotay would've been one of the first ones to just say "Look people, we're stuck out here through no fault of anyone. These guys are willing to let bygones be bygones, and frankly they're the only thing we have in the DQ close to a friendly face. We can either work together to try and survive, or we can just ask them to drop us off on the next commerce world, and I'd rather we all stayed here on an advanced Starship."
Janeway was sent to hunt down and capture the Maquis. They were certainly enemies. That some of the Maquis were once part of Starfleet (do we ever get a clear idea of the numbers that were?) doesn't negate that.

Secondly, thy weren't trapped in the Delta Quadrant by accident. Janeway made a conscious decision to trap them there based upon her own set of principles. The Maquis might have chosen Voyager because it was their best option -- but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be angry about the situation, and furious at Janeway. Honestly, it's surprising that more members of Janeway's crew weren't mad at her. Even if they were on a deep space mission, it certainly wouldn't have been intended to last for 70 years.
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Old January 12 2012, 10:44 PM   #438
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Re: Does It Get Better???

That "Burned Moya" thing was what I was talking about. Only once in the entire show do they need to take it to a Ship Doctor for repairs, and even if there's still some damaged parts of the ship it never affects Moya in any real capacity. It's not like for the rest of the show she can't Starburst or is in chronic pain or anything.

Even if they were sent out to catch them, does that mean that once you took away the DMZ and the Cardassians, they still had any real reason to keep fighting? Chakotay's group never encountered Voyager before so there was nothing personal between them, and to continue to fight in the DQ would just be silly. Yes, there should've been SOME friction but given how the Maquis really didn't have true differences in ideology and organization from Starfleet realistically it wasn't going to be much, nor was it going to last.

In Farscape, the crew of Moya were all violent criminals/true enemies beforehand. And also, they really didn't NEED one another since Moya ran itself and the ship didn't belong to any of them so there was no unity between any of them either. Not so with Voyager.

Janeway made a conscious decision to trap them there based upon her own set of principles
No, she didn't. The Array was never a viable option, the silly thing was that some characters (Torres) acted like it WAS.

There was never a choice. Unfortunately some of the WRITERS forgot and in episodes like "Night" they acted like it was a choice.
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Old January 12 2012, 10:53 PM   #439
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Harvey wrote: View Post
Deep-Space missions are supposed to last for years (Kirk's was 5 years) away from home and out of touch with Mission Control.
What's this based on again? As I indicated elsewhere in the forum, that was never the intention of the original Star Trek. That was the intention of Star Trek: The Next Generation, but the premise was abandoned early in the first season, after barely being mentioned.
The original Star Trek was indeed a 5 year mission. This is canon from the opening theme, which we should all know by heart:

Space: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. Its five-year mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before.
The USS Voyager, Intrepid-Class is intended as a strategic, mission-specific vessel. It was never intended to be on a 5 year mission like the Enterprise, so it was noteworthy for completing a 7 year mission without any contact with Starfleet or refueling at Starbases. There is one episode, I can't recall which, where B'Elanna convinces Janeway to land on a planet for extensive overhaul.

Whether or not this is realistic, I don't really think so. The things that bug me about the show was the 17+ shuttlecraft they lose, the 100's of torpedoes they launch, the fact that nearly NOBODY dies during the course of the show, and numerous other deus ex machina type situations she finagled her way out of. But, I digress. I think I mentioned most of this several pages back anyway.
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Old January 12 2012, 10:55 PM   #440
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Anwar wrote: View Post
That "Burned Moya" thing was what I was talking about.
So why the line, "Moya never changes or shows battle damage" then?

Secondly, while they may have not gone to specialists to repair the ship all the time (honestly, I don't remember), they certainly did have to get supplies to maintain and repair the ship on a pretty consistent basis.

Third, you haven't mentioned the Moya pregnancy yet. While certainly not something that could have been done with Voyager, the ship on Farscape certainly didn't go without changes, as you suggested.

Yes, there should've been SOME friction but given how the Maquis really didn't have true differences in ideology and organization from Starfleet realistically it wasn't going to be much, nor was it going to last.
Besides the ideological difference that the Maquis wanted to make war against the Cardassians, while the Federation wanted to avoid this and was willing to arrest anyone who tried to do so? They may have been transported far from the DMZ and their political struggle, but it doesn't change the fact that the Maquis suddenly found themselves having to work for their would-be jailers, stranded far from home.

No, she didn't. The Array was never a viable option, the silly thing was that some characters (Torres) acted like it WAS.
Huh? I've seen "Caretaker" a few times (though, not recently), but never recall the ending being so easy.
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Old January 12 2012, 10:57 PM   #441
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Anwar wrote: View Post
Janeway made a conscious decision to trap them there based upon her own set of principles
No, she didn't. The Array was never a viable option, the silly thing was that some characters (Torres) acted like it WAS.

There was never a choice. Unfortunately some of the WRITERS forgot and in episodes like "Night" they acted like it was a choice.
Show me where in Caretaker it said that using the array wasn't a choice. The Caretaker died, and the self-destruct was damaged. Rather than allow the Kazon access to the array after they used it to go home, they decided to blow it up using the tricobalt warheads.

So, I ask you, point to where in Caretaker they acknowledge that it's not a viable option?


EDIT: Shoot, I'll do the work for you. This is from Memory-Alpha's episode summary:
Inside the array, the holographic simulation fails revealing the array's true layout. The Caretaker, now in his natural form, tells Janeway that the self-destruct system was damaged so now the array won't be destroyed. The Caretaker then finally dies, and in his final words states that if Kazon take the array, they will annihilate the Ocampa.

Janeway is now left with a difficult decision. Should she use the array to return to the Alpha Quadrant and let it fall into Kazon hands or destroy the array, as the Caretaker wanted at the cost of a way home? Tuvok reminds his Captain that any action taken to protect the Ocampa will affect the balance of power in this region of space; they would have to comply with the Prime Directive though Janeway questions the validity of the Prime Directive in this situation because, regardless of whether they chose to become involved in the affairs of the Ocampa or the Kazon, they are involved nonetheless. She and Tuvok beam back to Voyager when they discover that a Kazon fleet has arrived at the array. Janeway finally makes her decision and asks Tuvok to prepare tricobalt devices to destroy the array. B'Elanna Torres loudly argues that they will never be able to get home, but Chakotay bluntly overrules her. Janeway then orders Tuvok to fire and the tricobalt devices destroy the array, leaving no debris.
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Old January 12 2012, 10:57 PM   #442
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Re: Does It Get Better???

tighr wrote: View Post
Harvey wrote: View Post
Deep-Space missions are supposed to last for years (Kirk's was 5 years) away from home and out of touch with Mission Control.
What's this based on again? As I indicated elsewhere in the forum, that was never the intention of the original Star Trek. That was the intention of Star Trek: The Next Generation, but the premise was abandoned early in the first season, after barely being mentioned.
The original Star Trek was indeed a 5 year mission.
Obviously. That doesn't mean it was a "deep space mission" like the one Anwar suggests, where they're cut off from Starfleet for years. See my post here. I wasn't arguing against the 5-year mission premise. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
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Old January 12 2012, 11:04 PM   #443
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Anwar wrote: View Post
AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
I just don't find it plausible that the ship would look brand new after all the battles it's fought and all it's gone through. It should be bruised and scarred (both the interior and the exterior) and supplies should be running out.
In Farscape, Moya goes through nasty stuff and it never changes or shows battle damage. Only once in the entire show do they have to take it to a specialist for repair work.
So how does that make it any more plausible in Star Trek? Saying that another show did it too doesn't make it right.

Anwar wrote: View Post
AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
The crew should be down in the dumps and depressed. After all, all of their opportunities to get home have been foiled by their very own captain.
Deep-Space missions are supposed to last for years (Kirk's was 5 years) away from home and out of touch with Mission Control. And both Kirk and Picard have been in their same situations and yet both managed to return home okay. No reason to get that depressed when at least 5 years away from home is what they signed on for, and they know that this isn't some impossible situation.

And Janeway didn't mess up their ways home, that's all BS VOY Haters spout around.
Kirk and Picard weren't stranded in another quadrant, and they weren't stranded 70 years away from home. Theire situations are a little bit different.

Going back to Janeway, her decision in Caretaker is understandable, but what about in Prime Factors and False Profits? It's true that in Prime Factors the technology ended up being a fluke, but even if it had been capable of sending them back home Janeway still would have refused to steal it because it "goes against her principles." Now, I will give this episode credit for actually showing some adversity between the Starfleet and Maquis. Several Maquis (and Tuvok) went behind Janeway's back and stole the technology. That was interesting and exciting, and it made for a very good episode. My question is, why couldn't they have done episodes like that more often?
I also mentioned False Profits. Janeway's blunder in this episode was not sticking to her principles, but rather just plain stupidity. Even though she had the perfect opportunity to get home (through the wormhole) she chose to wait on it because two stupid Ferengi on the planet were more important than getting the ship and its entire crew home. And, of course, the wormhole closed before they were able to use it.

Anwar wrote: View Post
AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
I could easily see Maquis murdering Starfleet officers in their sleep.
This, not so much. Why would the Maquis do this? They weren't hardcore arch-enemies of the Feds, their enemies were the Cardassians. They didn't even have really serious differences with the Feds in terms of how they operated, since their own leader was an Ex-Fleeter who brought most of his experience to them.
The situation I was describing was one in which the Maquis grow fed up with Janeway and her bad leadership, and decide to take measures into their own hands. Killing them in their sleep is going a bit far, I admit, but at the very least they could attempt to throw them in the brig or strand them on a planet.

Anwar wrote: View Post
AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
This would also be a great opportunity to examine the Starfleet officers; how do they respond to the Maquis threat? Do they negotiate and make peace with the Maquis like they have been trained to do, or do they throw their principles aside and fight for their life?
But the Maquis and Feds weren't really enemies in the first place, and the local Maquis Leader (Chakotay) WAS an Ex-Fleeter.

He wasn't even a traitor like Eddington, he formally resigned and THEN joined the Maquis, and he didn't betray secrets or operations in the process. Or go out of his way to antagonize the Feds.

If anything, Chakotay would've been one of the first ones to just say "Look people, we're stuck out here through no fault of anyone. These guys are willing to let bygones be bygones, and frankly they're the only thing we have in the DQ close to a friendly face. We can either work together to try and survive, or we can just ask them to drop us off on the next commerce world, and I'd rather we all stayed here on an advanced Starship."

Yes, this should have all been addressed in the show itself but the bottom line is that the Maquis were never going to be truly adversarial to the Feds and whatever tensions between them would realistically be resolved in 1-2 seasons. Any more than that is just crazy.
Your reasoning for Chakotay not turning on SF is sound, so I'll agree with you on that. In my scenario he could be one of the only Maquis that doesn't turn on the Starfleet officers.

To clarify what I am saying, this scenario I am describing would not last for the entire show. In the first season there would a lot of tension between the Maquis and Starfleet. In season two things would erupt and both sides would fight for control of Voyager. It would start out with the Maquis doing things behind the SF officers backs, and would eventually escalate into war between both sides. The Maquis would eventually form alliances with other Delta Quadrant factions and they would leave Voyager to join with those factions in hopes that they could one day claim Voyager with the help of those other factions. When it comes down to it, what I am essentially describing is a much larger scale version of the Kazon arc, which as I've said before is my favorite series of episodes on Voyager so far.
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Old January 12 2012, 11:50 PM   #444
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Re: Does It Get Better???

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Huh? I've seen "Caretaker" a few times (though, not recently), but never recall the ending being so easy.
Tuvok said that it would've taken hours/weeks (some long time length) to get the Array's "Return Voyager Home" program running, and in all that time they'd be under attack from the Kazon and their oncoming reinforcements. They could either stay, fight and lose so the Kazon would get both the Array AND Voyager, or they could blow up the Array then and there and run from the Kazon so they got neither.

They'd never have the chance to use the Array to go home.

And even if they had somehow managed to get it working faster, the way the Array pulled them there killed a lot of people meaning going back would also kill a lot of people. It wasn't even a safe way of going back.

So why the line, "Moya never changes or shows battle damage" then?

Secondly, while they may have not gone to specialists to repair the ship all the time (honestly, I don't remember), they certainly did have to get supplies to maintain and repair the ship on a pretty consistent basis
Because aside from that one story, wherein the remaining damage didn't even affect Moya in the future, Moya doesn't show any battle scars from anything else it goes through.

They mentioned resupplying and repairs, but we never SAW any of it nor did that ever play into the plot. It was lip service.

They may have been transported far from the DMZ and their political struggle, but it doesn't change the fact that the Maquis suddenly found themselves having to work for their would-be jailers, stranded far from home.
Would-be jailers who usually only went after them whenever they attacked the Feds in the first place for stealing supplies or raiding supply lanes for supplies and stuff. Not quite the same as the actively hostile Cardassians who go out of their way to kill them all the time. I'd say they'd be more ready to negotiate and cooperate with the Feds given the circumstances. And vice-versa with the Feds too.

Now, if there was some pre-existing feud with Chakotay's Maquis Cell and Voyager (or if Chakotay was never a Former Fleeter) then I could see real tensions.

Ideally, the second crew should've been Romulans but that's just my pipe dream.

Kirk and Picard weren't stranded in another quadrant, and they weren't stranded 70 years away from home. Theire situations are a little bit different.
Kirk got lost beyond the Galactic Barrier in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" and made it back, Picard and co got flung into another Galaxy in "Where No One Has Gone Before" and made it back too.

Except they did it a lot faster than Janeway.

As for her having them lose out on one chance home (and given how the Barzan Wormhole was unstable, it may not have worked right), let's be honest here: This is Gilligan Syndrome, NONE of their chances to go home were going to succeed because the show would end.

What they needed was a more complete premise that they could accomplish without ending the show.

The Maquis would eventually form alliances with other Delta Quadrant factions and they would leave Voyager to join with those factions in hopes that they could one day claim Voyager with the help of those other factions. When it comes down to it, what I am essentially describing is a much larger scale version of the Kazon arc, which as I've said before is my favorite series of episodes on Voyager so far
Personally, I'd think that the Maquis would just be happy finding some DQ world to settle down on as a new home and not want to go back to the AQ at all. After all, their whole conflict was about having their own world to live on as they see fit.
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Old January 13 2012, 01:01 AM   #445
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Re: Does It Get Better???

I think all of Ron Moore's points stand, and the two main criticisms are hard to argue with.

-The crew and ship should be struggling more. It shouldn't be so easy to just build another shuttle and warp engine whenever one crashes so far from Federation space. Sure they can trade if there are friendly aliens but what do they really have to give if their supplies are already limited and why are we not privy to seeing any of these exchanges? Its difficult to feel like you're watching real people in a real situation when the ship is nearly destroyed in "Deadlock" and looking like it did on day 1 in the next episode. I'm sure the ship has a competent core of engineers but its a bit harder to swallow the show telling us they can fix a critically damaged ship covered in hull breaches between episodes with limited supplies. Likewise the throwaway "holodecks have a different power source so we can use them as much as we like" line in season 1 is something Voyager will never live down and will always stand as a testament to the shirking of the premise done from the outset.

-The crew act like a standard Starfleet crew. Looking at the show on paper, most people would expect an initial Starfleet/Maquis struggle ending in a compromise and a blending of Starfleet principles with Maquis pragmatism. Unfortunately we got the same old "senior officers debate Starfleet principles in the meeting room every episode". Thank goodness we finally got some conflict with Seven coming on board.
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Old January 13 2012, 01:43 AM   #446
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Re: Does It Get Better???

But again, they never bothered properly defining the Maquis before VOY so we wouldn't even know just what "The Maquis Way" was and just how it differed.

If they'd used a properly defined group as the second crew (like Romulans) then we'd know just what their differences were and would have something to draw us in as to what type of new crew would develop as a result.
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Old January 13 2012, 01:59 AM   #447
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Anwar wrote: View Post
If they'd used a properly defined group as the second crew (like Romulans) then we'd know just what their differences were and would have something to draw us in as to what type of new crew would develop as a result.
I suppose they were under the impression that having an adversarial group onboard Voyager, like the Maquis, that hadn't been well defined would give them more story opportunities/scenarios and would prevent them from writing themselves into a corner.
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Old January 13 2012, 02:01 AM   #448
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Anwar wrote: View Post
If they'd used a properly defined group as the second crew (like Romulans) then we'd know just what their differences were and would have something to draw us in as to what type of new crew would develop as a result.
On the other hand, they could just use a new group and flesh them out during the course of the show...
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Old January 13 2012, 02:37 AM   #449
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Anwar wrote: View Post
But again, they never bothered properly defining the Maquis before VOY so we wouldn't even know just what "The Maquis Way" was and just how it differed.
There had been at least three Maquis episodes by the time Voyager began. DS9's The Maquis Part 1 and Part 2 as well as TNG's Preemptive Strike. I think audiences had a fairly good understanding of the Maquis by the time they were introduced to Voyager, so it wasn't as if they needed to rewrite the Maquis from the ground up. A little more fleshing out was all that was needed. Unfortunately, we didn't get any.
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Old January 13 2012, 03:14 AM   #450
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Re: Does It Get Better???

And none of those episodes really gave off anything that showed how the Maquis were going to be different from the Feds.

They were better off either just having the second crew be a bunch of random DQ aliens that were on the Caretaker's Array (or were Kazon prisoners on the planet), because then at least we'd also have characters who were linked to the DQ and could be used to flesh out the area better.

Or, just use Romulans (since Klingons and Cardassians were getting plenty of screentime on DS9).
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