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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old January 12 2012, 05:36 PM   #421
AdmiralScreed
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Re: Does It Get Better???

A real shame that they ousted Michael Piller. I loved the Kazon arc, and as a whole I thought season 2 was great.
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Old January 12 2012, 05:38 PM   #422
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Re: Does It Get Better???

I think if they'd kept Michael Piller, you'd be enjoying the show a lot more now for sure. Piller wasn't very happy about it, he felt that the show was really going to hit its stride in season 3. Personally I felt they made too many mistakes with the Kazon arc and wouldn't have been happy to see it continue into season 3. But that didn't mean they needed to abandon arc based story-telling altogether!
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Old January 12 2012, 05:45 PM   #423
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Re: Does It Get Better???

tighr wrote: View Post
I love DS9, and have no problems with the way this episode handles genetics/genetic memory/whatever gobbledegook. It's just a bad episode. It's extremely odd that a race would even develop the way they did, needing to steal other men for procreation and such. It just didn't seem plausible as a concept. The techno-babble was fine, and I bought it, but the concept itself is laughable.

I don't see how this contradicts Jem'Hadar, care to expand on that?
The two DS9 fans who've done complete reviews of Voyager refused to even review this episode. Saying it's just bad tells us how you feel but not what you think.

As for the implausibility of the concept, the notion of genetic knowledge is an old one. It doesn't work in earthly life but is still a sufficiently plausible speculation to serve here. As to the intrinsic implausibility of this race, they are nothing more than the biological equivalents of the Borg Collective, where instead of electronically assimilating alien knowledge and technology, they biologically assimilate it from aliens and then transmit it directly to their offspring. True in both cases the societies could not have evolved that way. They both must have become that way.

(The refusal to even review the episode is really pathetic. Plus, it misses out on some interesting stuff, even if you really do find reason to dislike the episode. For example, the basic concept is developed from the late, great Octavia Butler's Xenogenesis trilogy. The thematic repudiation of the family romance fantasy, where the child was really born from other parents and inherits a special destiny was also decidedly at variance with DS9, which strongly specialized in this.)

As for the Jem'Hadar, they however do not have genetic knowledge, they have genetically determined behavior patterns, aka instincts. And everything we know about instinct says that they cannot be simultaneously programmed to adore the Founders who do not even have a specific form to serve as a trigger for the instinctive behavior and display adaptive, aka learned behavior. Unfortunately, the Jem'Hadar are in fact a truly moronic idea, and worse, one that was used over and over. And worst of all, one that was taken quite seriously. Personally, if I want stupid ideas I prefer them with a lighter touch, like in SG1.

As for "a ton of genetic research that is finding markers that seem to pre-determine certain behavioural patterns that go on in life..." this is a falsehood. Either the so-called markers do not in fact indicate predetermination or the supposed behavioral patterns are in fact too general to constitute a genuine pattern. Or both! The supposed research is all flawed, and is nothing more than yet another attempt at a scientific racism.
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Old January 12 2012, 05:46 PM   #424
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Here's the RDM interview where he railed on Voyager: http://www.lcarscom.net/rdm1000118.htm

Not sure if that was posted earlier in this thread or not.
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Old January 12 2012, 05:50 PM   #425
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Re: Does It Get Better???

stj wrote: View Post
Saying it's just bad tells us how you feel but not what you think.
Well, I did go into a few reasons why I think its bad, but if you really wanted me to do an in-depth review I certainly would.

I'm not sure which DS9 reviewers who refused to review you're referring to, but I'd agree that a refusal to review an episode is cowardice in discussing it.
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Old January 12 2012, 06:20 PM   #426
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Re: Does It Get Better???

STJ is now suggesting conspiracy theories about DS9 reviewers...

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Old January 12 2012, 06:36 PM   #427
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Re: Does It Get Better???

tighr wrote: View Post
Here's the RDM interview where he railed on Voyager: http://www.lcarscom.net/rdm1000118.htm

Not sure if that was posted earlier in this thread or not.
And that whole thing just proves Moore is a dummy.
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Old January 12 2012, 06:37 PM   #428
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Re: Does It Get Better???

tighr wrote: View Post
Here's the RDM interview where he railed on Voyager: http://www.lcarscom.net/rdm1000118.htm

Not sure if that was posted earlier in this thread or not.
Interesting interview. A good summary of everything that is wrong with Voyager.
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Old January 12 2012, 07:38 PM   #429
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Re: Does It Get Better???

How so? It really just comes off as a disgruntled employee blathering on about how the VOY production team were dumb for not changing the entire show every episode.
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Old January 12 2012, 07:42 PM   #430
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Let's not get into this debate. I think you just need to accept Anwar that the majority of people disagree with you and that exaggeration is not the way to try and get your point across (i.e. change the entire show every episode)
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Old January 12 2012, 07:48 PM   #431
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Anwar wrote: View Post
How so?
The show didn't stay true to its premise
-The ship was magically in tip top shape each week, even after destructive battles that heavily damaged the ship.
-The Maquis fell nearly perfectly into line with Starfleet, despite being the total opposite of Starfleet.

The show wasted it's terrific cast. Not much else to say about that.

And more...

Keep in mind that I've got another 4 seasons to go after this, so it is possible that things will take a 180 turn around, although after reading his article and just from prior knowledge I am doubtful that that will happen.
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Old January 12 2012, 08:28 PM   #432
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Re: Does It Get Better???

I think you just need to accept Anwar that the majority of people disagree with you and that exaggeration is not the way to try and get your point across (i.e. change the entire show every episode)
It's what Moore tried to do with NuBSG, and most of the time he ended up hitting the reset button as well!

AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
The show didn't stay true to its premise
It wasn't even a complete premise to begin with, and how were they "not true" to it? It wouldn't have made any sense for the ship to be some scarred near-wreck or for them to be low on food a place as densely inhabited as the Trekverse.

Moore only got Galactica to work by having there be no aliens in their Universe, and even then he only got 2 seasons out of it before the show fell apart.

-The ship was magically in tip top shape each week, even after destructive battles that heavily damaged the ship.
So their engineering staff isn't incompetent, that's a problem?

-The Maquis fell nearly perfectly into line with Starfleet, despite being the total opposite of Starfleet.
No, they weren't. What real differences DID the Maquis have from the Feds, once the DMZ and Cardassians were no longer present?
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Old January 12 2012, 08:29 PM   #433
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Re: Does It Get Better???

I think its a great commentary not just on Voyager, but the Star Trek franchise as a whole. The interview was during Voyager's run, and he makes some predictions about the future of Trek that very nearly come completely true:

Let’s say the next movie comes out and it’s a colossal flop, and the next series doesn’t make it out of year one, which is unimaginable. That is truly the Titanic situation. Okay, Paramount cuts their losses and fires everybody. They clean out the soundstages; they give up the production offices, and they sit on it for ten years. Then some executive will come in, and say, ‘We still own the rights to that STAR TREK franchise. Let’s get that going again.’ They’ll bring in some people, and they will start it all up again, because that is the nature of a studio. It’s a given that it is going to keep coming back.
Well, what happened? ST: Nemesis was a flop, Enterprise wasn't very highly regarded and got canned after 4 seasons, they sat on the Franchise for 5 years and then released ST'09. He even predicted that the next series (Enterprise) would be about the past, pre-Kirk.
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Old January 12 2012, 08:40 PM   #434
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Braga was already working on ENT during VOY S6, so Moore probably knew from the Studio when he said that.

Moore's own attempts at making his own franchise/continuing series speak for themselves, really. He can't write endings, and he's got enough in him creatively for 1-2 seasons but after that it's always off the rails.
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Old January 12 2012, 09:14 PM   #435
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Re: Does It Get Better???

I just don't find it plausible that the ship would look brand new after all the battles it's fought and all it's gone through. It should be bruised and scarred (both the interior and the exterior) and supplies should be running out. The crew should be down in the dumps and depressed. After all, all of their opportunities to get home have been foiled by their very own captain. A fight for control of the ship would be realistic, especially considering that the Maquis aren't as disciplined and principled as the Starfleet officers. I could easily see Maquis murdering Starfleet officers in their sleep. This would also be a great opportunity to examine the Starfleet officers; how do they respond to the Maquis threat? Do they negotiate and make peace with the Maquis like they have been trained to do, or do they throw their principles aside and fight for their life? Considering they need all of the crew members they can get, this is a difficult question to answer. How do you make peace with your enemy?
Related to that, I think it's unrealistic for Chakotay to get along so well with Janeway and the other Starfleet officers. He's a Maquis, and they don't operate in under the same protocol as Starfleet. Unfortunately, the show hasn't done a very good job showing this so far. Season 1 and 2 had some good Starfleet/Maquis episode, but they seem to have completely given up on those stories now. A shame.
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