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Old January 10 2012, 09:35 PM   #256
Anwar
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

No, he was stuck on a ship for 5 years with the exact same number of people, .
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Old January 10 2012, 11:43 PM   #257
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

At least Janeway didn't have to put up with Federation Officals.
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Old January 11 2012, 12:49 AM   #258
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

Anwar wrote: View Post
No, he was stuck on a ship for 5 years with the exact same number of people, .
If you mean he was stuck on a ship for five years with the "exact same" number of people that was on Voyager... then no. Kirk's Enterprise had three times the number of crew. For him to get to know every last one of them would be far more challenging.

If you mean he was stuck for five years with the exact same number of people from week to week, year to year, then... well, kinda. Maybe not the EXACT same number; crew would rotate in and out, and the precise count wouldn't always be 430 on the nose. But generally the same number, sure.

But not the same people. Kirk's ship isn't off in the Delta Quadrant. Crew would come and go: people die, get promoted, transfer in, transfer out, etc. Same with the Ent-D and the Defiant. Part of the very premise of VOY was that the crew would be more of a "family", and that this would be shown in a more direct way than in other Trek shows. Instead, the background crew (and, really, everyone whose name didn't appear in the theme song every week) was far MORE disposable/replaceable than on DS9, with only a couple of exceptions (i.e. Icheb), rather than the reverse. At best, VOY is tied with TNG when it comes to the use of secondary characters.

"Good Shepard" was idiotic. It could have worked in a much earlier season, but as far into the show as season 6? At that point, it just undercut the "family" idea even more. The ep had this tone of unfamiliarity, like Janeway was trying to connect with these people and find out more about them while saying to herself, "Man, I never thought about this before! How many other members of this crew are just sitting around, feeling directionless?" It's like, ok, so it took you SIX YEARS to think about that?

It's an example of VOY presenting itself as nothing more than TNG lite; in this case, it's basically a really bad ripoff of TNG's "Lower Decks."
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Old January 11 2012, 01:00 AM   #259
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

It's also especially bad that in Good Shepherd, it's all Janeway can do not to roll her eyes right out of her head when Harren reveals that (gasp) he doesn't have the same wants in his life as Janeway.

"We're a family! As long as you agree with me on everything."
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Old January 11 2012, 02:28 AM   #260
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

Saito S wrote: View Post
But not the same people. Kirk's ship isn't off in the Delta Quadrant. Crew would come and go: people die, get promoted, transfer in, transfer out, etc.
The TOS Enterprise was supposed to be on a 5 year deep space exploration mission though. They weren't supposed to just drop off and pick up new crew willy-nilly, the crew they start with is supposed to be their whole crew the whole mission.
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Old January 11 2012, 02:31 AM   #261
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

150 people is nothing.

At "high school" I had almost a thousand names and faces in my head to fit the context of those surroundings.

It wasn't till I went to a university with almost 20 thousand students, that I just said "fuck it you're a faceless mob".
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Old January 11 2012, 02:39 AM   #262
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Saito S wrote: View Post
But not the same people. Kirk's ship isn't off in the Delta Quadrant. Crew would come and go: people die, get promoted, transfer in, transfer out, etc.
The TOS Enterprise was supposed to be on a 5 year deep space exploration mission though. They weren't supposed to just drop off and pick up new crew willy-nilly, the crew they start with is supposed to be their whole crew the whole mission.
Maybe that was the original concept, but that's not how it actually happened. What Saito S describes was quite clearly established as how ship life worked in TOS... and TNG and DS9 for that matter.
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Old January 11 2012, 03:34 AM   #263
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

RyuRoots wrote: View Post
It's also especially bad that in Good Shepherd, it's all Janeway can do not to roll her eyes right out of her head when Harren reveals that (gasp) he doesn't have the same wants in his life as Janeway.

"We're a family! As long as you agree with me on everything."
That's not fair because it wasn't what she was rolling her eyes at. She was rolling her eyes because he was condescending. It was like trying to have a conversation with Mark Zuckerberg.
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Old January 11 2012, 03:43 AM   #264
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

Saito S wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
No, he was stuck on a ship for 5 years with the exact same number of people, .
If you mean he was stuck on a ship for five years with the "exact same" number of people that was on Voyager... then no. Kirk's Enterprise had three times the number of crew. For him to get to know every last one of them would be far more challenging.

If you mean he was stuck for five years with the exact same number of people from week to week, year to year, then... well, kinda. Maybe not the EXACT same number; crew would rotate in and out, and the precise count wouldn't always be 430 on the nose. But generally the same number, sure.

But not the same people. Kirk's ship isn't off in the Delta Quadrant. Crew would come and go: people die, get promoted, transfer in, transfer out, etc. Same with the Ent-D and the Defiant. Part of the very premise of VOY was that the crew would be more of a "family", and that this would be shown in a more direct way than in other Trek shows. Instead, the background crew (and, really, everyone whose name didn't appear in the theme song every week) was far MORE disposable/replaceable than on DS9, with only a couple of exceptions (i.e. Icheb), rather than the reverse. At best, VOY is tied with TNG when it comes to the use of secondary characters.

"Good Shepard" was idiotic. It could have worked in a much earlier season, but as far into the show as season 6? At that point, it just undercut the "family" idea even more. The ep had this tone of unfamiliarity, like Janeway was trying to connect with these people and find out more about them while saying to herself, "Man, I never thought about this before! How many other members of this crew are just sitting around, feeling directionless?" It's like, ok, so it took you SIX YEARS to think about that?

It's an example of VOY presenting itself as nothing more than TNG lite; in this case, it's basically a really bad ripoff of TNG's "Lower Decks."
Sorry but I think you're overlooking the bigger picture as well as taking the concept of "family" to literally.
Janeway has to worry about the ENTIRE ship ALL THE TIME.
She doesn't have time to get to know EVERYONE on it on a personal level. She has much bigger issues to worry about on a regular basis. The person in charge of getting to know the crew and how well they work or don't is Chakotay and the senior officers of that dept. Janeway is always on the bridge, she never eats in the mess hall and is only called to sections where her senior staff is. When did Janeway ever have the time to get to know the entire crew on a personal level? Even when she had time off, she'd be called to the bridge. In 7 years Janeway never had the time nor luxury to get to know the entire crew personally.
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Old January 11 2012, 04:15 AM   #265
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

exodus wrote: View Post
RyuRoots wrote: View Post
It's also especially bad that in Good Shepherd, it's all Janeway can do not to roll her eyes right out of her head when Harren reveals that (gasp) he doesn't have the same wants in his life as Janeway.

"We're a family! As long as you agree with me on everything."
That's not fair because it wasn't what she was rolling her eyes at. She was rolling her eyes because he was condescending.
Well, Harren was the only remotely competent person on the Delta Flyer on that mission, so frankly I think he had a right to be condescending.
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Old January 11 2012, 04:25 AM   #266
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

RyuRoots wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
RyuRoots wrote: View Post
It's also especially bad that in Good Shepherd, it's all Janeway can do not to roll her eyes right out of her head when Harren reveals that (gasp) he doesn't have the same wants in his life as Janeway.

"We're a family! As long as you agree with me on everything."
That's not fair because it wasn't what she was rolling her eyes at. She was rolling her eyes because he was condescending.
Well, Harren was the only remotely competent person on the Delta Flyer on that mission, so frankly I think he had a right to be condescending.
I disagree.
Thinking your better doesn't give anybody the green light for poor social skills. Doesn't matter how smart you are if people start tuning you out due to your attitude.
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Old January 11 2012, 04:35 AM   #267
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

Poor social skills are in of themselves their own reward.
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Old January 11 2012, 04:37 AM   #268
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Poor social skills are in of themselves their own reward.
Only if you're Madonna or Mark Zuckerberg.
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Old January 11 2012, 06:30 AM   #269
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

exodus wrote: View Post
Sorry but I think you're overlooking the bigger picture as well as taking the concept of "family" to literally.
I'm doing no such thing.

That the "family" (i.e. the crew) would be closer and more tight-knit due to the circumstances of the ship isn't my idea. This is what was said about VOY by the cast and producers when the show was first being created. The point I was making was that the sense of family, of closeness, wasn't any more prevalent outside of the main characters (and even within the main characters, it was a very mixed bag; some relationships were well-realized and made sense, others were left to languish) than it was on TNG. This is a flaw in VOY, since the supposedly greater degree of closeness, the heightened "sense of family", was something built into the premise itself, then dropped completely. And at the same time, DS9, a show that has no such requirement built into its premise, did a masterful job of creating, developing, and utilizing a large, diverse cast of "secondary" characters.

And nowhere did I imply that I in any way thought that the VOY crew would act like a literal family.
Janeway has to worry about the ENTIRE ship ALL THE TIME.
And other Starfleet captains don't?

That's a huge exaggeration anyway. Captains have a first officer, department heads, etc. for a reason. The well-being of every last person on the ship isn't just dumped squarely on one person's shoulders (as you yourself, bizarrely, point out, in the paragraph below). Yes, the captain has more such responsibilities than any other single person, but you are making it sound like Janeway was tasked with single-handedly running the entire ship.
She doesn't have time to get to know EVERYONE on it on a personal level. She has much bigger issues to worry about on a regular basis. The person in charge of getting to know the crew and how well they work or don't is Chakotay and the senior officers of that dept. Janeway is always on the bridge, she never eats in the mess hall and is only called to sections where her senior staff is.
As I pointed out above: so which is it? Is Janeway worrying about "THE ENTIRE SHIP ALL THE TIME"? Or is it that she can't be arsed to worry about the well-being of her crew, cause she's too busy and that's what Chuckles if for? Pick one, please.

That aside: Point out where I said "Janeway should know every member of her crew on a personal level." You seem to be pounding that point REALLY hard, and it's not even what I said in the post you quoted.

The first officer and the department heads would work with the captain to determine "how well they work." This is evidenced not only by common sense, but by the number of times the captain on a given series has been involved in a scene or sub-plot involving "what should we do with crewman X". Your assertions that Janeway is "always on the bridge" and "only called to sections where her senior staff is" are overly simplistic.
When did Janeway ever have the time to get to know the entire crew on a personal level? Even when she had time off, she'd be called to the bridge. In 7 years Janeway never had the time nor luxury to get to know the entire crew personally.
I dunno, how about all that time she spent goofing off in Fair Haven? Not only did she clearly have some time off (and that's hardly the only example; the idea that she never had any time to talk to people is bollocks), there's also the possibility that, if the creators of the show had decided to spend more time showing Janeway interacting with non-main-cast crew members, maybe we would have gotten fewer ridiculous holodeck scenarios.

And again, while I never said she needed to know EVERY last crew member on a personal level ("personal level" meaning she knows some things about their personal histories, their families, their interests, has spent lots of time with them, etc.), I do think she would (and, frankly, should) know every last crew member at least minimally, by the end of the second year or so. I don't expect her to be able to recite family histories off the top of her head, but she should know everyone's name and at least a little bit about them. It's only 150-ish people (and that number goes down with each season). "Good Shepard" was about her realizing that there were people that were "left behind"; individuals on her ship that didn't feel like they were "part of the family." Well, six freakin' years into the journey is a wee bit late to be hitting on that idea.

As for the amount of transfers/personnel changes that occured on Kirk's Enterprise, zar makes a good point about the concept vs. the reality. But even if they'd stuck to the concept 100%, there still would be more new crew coming onto the ship than in Janeway's case, i.e., at all. Voyager NEVER gets any crew rotation, so even a little bit would be more. And Kirk has way more people on his ship, too.
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Old January 11 2012, 07:01 AM   #270
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

Anwar wrote: View Post
The TOS Enterprise was supposed to be on a 5 year deep space exploration mission though. They weren't supposed to just drop off and pick up new crew willy-nilly, the crew they start with is supposed to be their whole crew the whole mission.
Not really. Gene Roddenberry's original draft of the narration goes like this:

This is the story of the United Space Ship Enterprise. Assigned a five year patrol of our galaxy, the giant starship visits Earth colonies, regulates commerce, and explores strange new worlds and civilizations. These are its voyages, and its adventures.
Although the narration was eventually revised (by Gene Roddenberry, John D.F. Black, and Bob Justman), the important components to the mission besides exploration (visiting Earth colonies; regulating commerce) were evident on the series from the get-go.

They certainly weren't tied down to the crew at the outset, as illustrated by their regular encounters with other Earth ships, Federation Starbases, and the like.
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