RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 137,858
Posts: 5,328,525
Members: 24,554
Currently online: 575
Newest member: Kastrol

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Inquisition
By: Michelle on Jul 12

Cubify Star Trek 3DMe Mini Figurines
By: T'Bonz on Jul 11

Latest Official Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Jul 10

Seven of Nine Bobble Head
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

Pegg The Prankster
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

More Trek Stars Join Unbelievable!!!!!
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

Star Trek #35 Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

New ThinkGeek Trek Apparel
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Star Trek Movie Prop Auction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Drexler: NX Engineering Room Construction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 10 2012, 12:53 AM   #61
horatio83
Commodore
 
Re: Is Picard a hypocrite?

You can bash Picard and defend Dougherty until you are blue in the face, theft remains theft and abduction remains abduction. The Federation is not an imperial power that takes what it wants without asking. What's next, a defense of rapists?
__________________
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger
horatio83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 10 2012, 01:20 AM   #62
sonak
Vice Admiral
 
Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: Is Picard a hypocrite?

horatio83 wrote: View Post
You can bash Picard and defend Dougherty until you are blue in the face, theft remains theft and abduction remains abduction. The Federation is not an imperial power that takes what it wants without asking. What's next, a defense of rapists?

your willingness to try to see various sides of an issue really is very inspiring.
sonak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 10 2012, 01:58 AM   #63
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: In the 23rd Century...
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Is Picard a hypocrite?

sonak wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
You can bash Picard and defend Dougherty until you are blue in the face, theft remains theft and abduction remains abduction. The Federation is not an imperial power that takes what it wants without asking. What's next, a defense of rapists?

your willingness to try to see various sides of an issue really is very inspiring.
__________________
"When I first heard about it (the Enterprise underwater), my inner Trekkie was in a rage. When I saw it, my inner kid beat up my inner Trekkie and made him go sit in the corner." - Bill Jasper
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 10 2012, 02:23 AM   #64
horatio83
Commodore
 
Re: Is Picard a hypocrite?

sonak wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
You can bash Picard and defend Dougherty until you are blue in the face, theft remains theft and abduction remains abduction. The Federation is not an imperial power that takes what it wants without asking. What's next, a defense of rapists?

your willingness to try to see various sides of an issue really is very inspiring.
I am eager to see you talking about "various sides of an issue" after somebody abducts you and takes your property.
If you side with criminals you gotta expect that people will point out that they are criminals. You can rationalize it all you want with inexistent moral dilemmas, at the end of the day Dougherty and Ru'afo are still criminals. That's why they die by the way in the movie, poetic justice, the bad guys always die. Like in all Trek movies it is crystal clear who the good and bad guys are.
__________________
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger
horatio83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 10 2012, 02:54 AM   #65
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: In the 23rd Century...
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Is Picard a hypocrite?

horatio83 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
You can bash Picard and defend Dougherty until you are blue in the face, theft remains theft and abduction remains abduction. The Federation is not an imperial power that takes what it wants without asking. What's next, a defense of rapists?

your willingness to try to see various sides of an issue really is very inspiring.
I am eager to see you talking about "various sides of an issue" after somebody abducts you and takes your property.
If you side with criminals you gotta expect that people will point out that they are criminals. You can rationalize it all you want with inexistent moral dilemmas, at the end of the day Dougherty and Ru'afo are still criminals. That's why they die by the way in the movie, poetic justice, the bad guys always die. Like in all Trek movies it is crystal clear who the good and bad guys are.
Unfortunately, I live in the big boy world where things are never that simplistic. I envy that you don't seem to know that world even exists.
__________________
"When I first heard about it (the Enterprise underwater), my inner Trekkie was in a rage. When I saw it, my inner kid beat up my inner Trekkie and made him go sit in the corner." - Bill Jasper
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 10 2012, 02:56 AM   #66
horatio83
Commodore
 
Re: Is Picard a hypocrite?

In Trek movies they are simplistic. Why do you dislike INS if it is really such a wonderful movie that features such a complex moral dilemma? So make up your mind, either you are right and there is indeed a complex dilemma which would make INS the most kick-ass Trek movie or it is a mediocre movie in which good guys fight against bad guys like in every Trek movie.
__________________
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger
horatio83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 10 2012, 02:58 AM   #67
sonak
Vice Admiral
 
Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: Is Picard a hypocrite?

horatio83 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
You can bash Picard and defend Dougherty until you are blue in the face, theft remains theft and abduction remains abduction. The Federation is not an imperial power that takes what it wants without asking. What's next, a defense of rapists?

your willingness to try to see various sides of an issue really is very inspiring.
I am eager to see you talking about "various sides of an issue" after somebody abducts you and takes your property.
If you side with criminals you gotta expect that people will point out that they are criminals. You can rationalize it all you want with inexistent moral dilemmas, at the end of the day Dougherty and Ru'afo are still criminals. That's why they die by the way in the movie, poetic justice, the bad guys always die. Like in all Trek movies it is crystal clear who the good and bad guys are.

I suspect that if Dougherty and Ru'afo took the matter to court, they'd have the law on their side.

And just because the movie's writers want us to see somebody as a villain doesn't mean I have to uncritically accept that.
sonak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 10 2012, 03:02 AM   #68
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: In the 23rd Century...
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Is Picard a hypocrite?

horatio83 wrote: View Post
In Trek movies they are simplistic. Why do you dislike INS if it is really such a wonderful movie that features such a complex moral dilemma? So make up your mind, either you are right and there is indeed a complex dilemma which would make INS the most kick-ass Trek movie or it is a mediocre movie in which good guys fight against bad guys like in every Trek movie.
I guess I just see where Michael Piller was trying to go with the film before he was sabotaged by Berman, Stewart and Spiner. You should really hunt down and read The Making of Star Trek: Insurrection. I see that Piller was trying to present a complex dilemma not trying to treat the audience like abject idiots.
__________________
"When I first heard about it (the Enterprise underwater), my inner Trekkie was in a rage. When I saw it, my inner kid beat up my inner Trekkie and made him go sit in the corner." - Bill Jasper
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 10 2012, 03:14 AM   #69
horatio83
Commodore
 
Re: Is Picard a hypocrite?

I totally agree that the 'Heart of Darkness'-like version of INS would most likely have been far better. Some of it remains in INS like the moral dilemma talk between Picard and Dougherty but it is overwritten, Dougherty is simply the bad guy.
That's why the movie is unsatisfying, even if you don't know the background stuff about the first story draft you feel that there was a change of directions during writing, that they couldn't decide whether they wanna make a dark or bright movie.
I certainly would not argue so one-sided if the movie had gone down this more radical road. But it hasn't and has actually become a simple morality tale.
__________________
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger
horatio83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
insurrection, picard

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:44 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.