RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,140
Posts: 5,433,832
Members: 24,934
Currently online: 513
Newest member: Emperor Khaless

TrekToday headlines

Pine In New Skit
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

Stewart In Holiday Film
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

The Red Shirt Diaries #8
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

IDW Publishing January Comics
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

Retro Review: Chrysalis
By: Michelle on Oct 18

The Next Generation Season Seven Blu-ray Details
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

CBS Launches Streaming Service
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Yelchin In New Indie Thriller
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Saldana In The Book of Life
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Cracked’s New Sci-Fi Satire
By: T'Bonz on Oct 16


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 2 2012, 04:57 AM   #391
Killandra
Lieutenant Commander
 
Killandra's Avatar
 
Location: Virginia
View Killandra's Twitter Profile Send a message via AIM to Killandra Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Killandra Send a message via Yahoo to Killandra
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Mage wrote: View Post
It's a pity that, for me personally, Before Dishonour was such a let down. I used to love Peter's work on New Frontier, with his offbeat humor and offbeat characters bringing a fresh air to Star Trek.

After a while though, it was as if Peter forced to much of offbeat and odd things in his work, coming to a point where we have a Supercube bigger then Earth eating Pluto. To me, there was nothing serious or threatening about the entire novel.

Destiny, however, was far from it, again for me personally. As was suggested by other, please read Destiny with an open mind.
I guess the question is how much of the content was he told he had to include and how much of it was his idea? Either way, I enjoy his stuff usually both in novels and comics, that I can let one slide as long as it doesn't become a habit. I would say Before Dishonor is definitely his worst...and not just because I'm a Janeway fan.
__________________
"Listen to me very carefully because I'm only going to say this once. Coffee. Black."-Kathryn Janeway
Killandra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 2 2012, 06:15 AM   #392
Thrawn
Rear Admiral
 
Thrawn's Avatar
 
Location: Washington, DC
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

^ Aside from killing Janeway and in some way using the cube from Resistance, I'm fairly sure everything was his idea. Not that that helps his case any, but since you were curious
Thrawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 2 2012, 06:50 PM   #393
MatthiasRussell
Fleet Captain
 
MatthiasRussell's Avatar
 
Location: Seattle
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

In which book did the Borg start absorbing rather than assimilating? I thought that was a cool change because we saw the Borg evolve to become more dangerous. I remember absorption in BF because I remember the Thunderchild being absorbed; I don't remember this happening to the Einstein/Frankenstein.
__________________
"Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers?"
MatthiasRussell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 2 2012, 08:40 PM   #394
bfollowell
Commander
 
bfollowell's Avatar
 
Location: Evansville, IN, USA
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
In which book did the Borg start absorbing rather than assimilating? I thought that was a cool change because we saw the Borg evolve to become more dangerous. I remember absorption in BF because I remember the Thunderchild being absorbed; I don't remember this happening to the Einstein/Frankenstein.
This happened in Before Dishonor, the title I just finished.

- Byron
__________________
Underachievement - Because soaring with the eagles requires so much more effort.
bfollowell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 3 2012, 09:01 AM   #395
Killandra
Lieutenant Commander
 
Killandra's Avatar
 
Location: Virginia
View Killandra's Twitter Profile Send a message via AIM to Killandra Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Killandra Send a message via Yahoo to Killandra
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Thrawn wrote: View Post
^ Aside from killing Janeway and in some way using the cube from Resistance, I'm fairly sure everything was his idea. Not that that helps his case any, but since you were curious
Just trying to play devil's advocate. We all have our opinions, but I am always willing to at least hear the other side(s) of the story.
__________________
"Listen to me very carefully because I'm only going to say this once. Coffee. Black."-Kathryn Janeway
Killandra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 6 2012, 04:17 AM   #396
Paper Moon
Commander
 
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Not to be a Johnny-come-27-pages-late(ly) to the discussion, but I want to echo what bfollowell said last page: I don't really get what all the fuss about BD is.

To be honest, my only qualm about this book is that it's perhaps just a little bit too... fun. When you put it next to Mack's Destiny, Peter David's treatment of the Borg does seem a little bit flippant.

But that aside, there are so many awesome moments in here. One of my favorite passages in TrekLit is Worf's reaction to the mutiny. I mean, maybe it's a touch unrealistic within the Trekverse, but it's certainly not the first thing to be so. And anyway, Picard, Worf, LaForge, Crusher, Spock... they really are legends. And heroes. And this book treats them as such. Call me shallow, but I like my heroes to get the hero-treatment once in a while.

(Spock knowing about the mutiny ahead of time, his locking out the computer just like in "The Menagerie," Seven and Spock's gentle competition, the depiction of the original crew's loyalty to Picard, Calhoun "crowning" Picard commodore of the fleet, the Sarek School of Diplomacy... awesome moments.)

And this book really took me on a ride. I couldn't put it down, it got my heart beating, it totally drew me in. And Janeway's death, which I thought, to be honest, was done well, including her interaction with Lady Q at the end, was really part of that. It was like, "Oh my god, he's really killed her. Damn, anything might happen now." Which was why Seven's near death and subsequent rescue by Vargo was so dramatically satisfying.

Yeah, the story is not nearly as serious as Destiny. Or the other Borg stories that bookend it. But, in my opinion, it's a really great adventure. And I actually quite like it for being so.
Paper Moon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 6 2012, 11:12 AM   #397
Therin of Andor
Admiral
 
Therin of Andor's Avatar
 
Location: New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
View Therin of Andor's Twitter Profile
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Paper Moon wrote: View Post
Yeah, the story is not nearly as serious as Destiny. Or the other Borg stories that bookend it. But, in my opinion, it's a really great adventure. And I actually quite like it for being so.
It also ends up being a sequel of sorts to PAD's "Vendetta", the very first Borg novel.
__________________
Thiptho lapth! Ian (Entire post is personal opinion)
The Andor Files @ http://andorfiles.blogspot.com/
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/
Therin of Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7 2012, 12:30 AM   #398
JB2005
Commodore
 
JB2005's Avatar
 
Location: England, UK
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

I'd just like to throw out there that Edit_XYZ was moralising killing all the Borg in terms of self defence/necessity...

I've said before and I'll say again I'm not too hot on US Law, I watch Boston Legal but that's where my knowledge begins and ends, so what I'm about to say speaks to English Law:

Necessity is never a defence to murder, never. If someone puts a gun to your head and tells you to kill a third person or you will die, English Law expects that you will do the right and proper thing and refuse to do so even if this means that you will die - nothing will ever give you the right to decide your life is more important than an innocent person.

And that's what we're talking about with the Borg, killing innocent people. It is the consciousness which is causing the borg to assimilate. Not the Drones. Picard's solution is akin to destroying every terminal that can access the internet in the world, because then we will destroy computer viruses...

And as for self defence, in order to suceed in self defence you have to be able to show that you believed that there was an immediate threat and that in those circumstances your actions were justified...genocide can never be a justifiable defence. Never. If you're telling me that the Federation's policy is "it is better that you all die so that we might live" then I want the Borg to win...at least there's no malice in what they're doing...the Borg are the embodiment of the phrase "we're from the government and we're here to help you" and nothing more, there is no evil in what they do...
__________________
Click here to see my failed attempt to write a children's story!
JB2005 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7 2012, 01:03 AM   #399
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

JB2005 wrote: View Post
...the Borg are the embodiment of the phrase "we're from the government and we're here to help you" and nothing more, there is no evil in what they do...
Well, no intentional evil. But a lot of the evil in the world is done in the belief that it's justified or beneficial. Evil is in the consequences.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7 2012, 01:03 AM   #400
George Steinbrenner
Fleet Admiral
 
George Steinbrenner's Avatar
 
Location: Mr. Laser Beam is in the visitor's bullpen
View George Steinbrenner's Twitter Profile
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Exactly. The Borg may not have evil *intent*, but their actions still qualify as such. Evil is as evil does, as Forrest Gump might say.

That being said, genocidal tactics to wipe them out are just as evil, and thankfully never had to be used.
__________________
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
George Steinbrenner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7 2012, 01:44 AM   #401
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..."
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Christopher wrote: View Post
JB2005 wrote: View Post
...the Borg are the embodiment of the phrase "we're from the government and we're here to help you" and nothing more, there is no evil in what they do...
Well, no intentional evil. But a lot of the evil in the world is done in the belief that it's justified or beneficial. Evil is in the consequences.
I mean, asking if the Borg have evil intent is a bit like asking if a rabid dog or a hungry lion has evil intent. Of course they don't; they lack moral agency.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7 2012, 08:26 PM   #402
Edit_XYZ
Fleet Captain
 
Edit_XYZ's Avatar
 
Location: At star's end.
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

JB2005 wrote: View Post
I'd just like to throw out there that Edit_XYZ was moralising killing all the Borg in terms of self defence/necessity...

I've said before and I'll say again I'm not too hot on US Law, I watch Boston Legal but that's where my knowledge begins and ends, so what I'm about to say speaks to English Law:

Necessity is never a defence to murder, never. If someone puts a gun to your head and tells you to kill a third person or you will die, English Law expects that you will do the right and proper thing and refuse to do so even if this means that you will die - nothing will ever give you the right to decide your life is more important than an innocent person.
In english law - perhaps not.
In most law systems known to man (not only US law, but US, most european, etc) - state of necessity most definitely IS an exculpation for your act, if certain conditions are met:
-the harm you'll cause by acting is smaller than the harm that will come to pass if you won't act;
-you had no reasonable alternative to your action - 'reasonable' alternative as in, you, a normal person, can discover it + the chance of this alternative 'working' are not minimal.

If these conditions are met, in most law systems you have the right to defend your life (or the life of another) against a person who cannot control his actions and is about to kill you - even by killing said person, if no other options are available.
You are saying that, in english law, you are legally obligated to essentially commit suicide in such a case? Creepy.


In the case from 'I, borg':
- the borg are currently engaged in a campaign to assimilate the entire galaxy - MILLIONS of civilisations - killing TRILLIONS of conscious beings. Yes, TRILLIONS - an atrocity on such a scale that human minds can only understand it as a mathematical abstraction.
The harm done by Picard&co when unleashing the paradox virus is far smaller than what the borg were doing and had in mind for the galaxy (and that is assuming the paradox virus would actually KILL the drones - which was not established in the episode).
-Picard&co had no other alternatives with a reasonable chance of stopping the borg.
'We'll win the lottery tomorrow and the borg will be destroyed by a godlike species' does NOT count as an reasonable alternative - with a reasonable chance of success.

And that's what we're talking about with the Borg, killing innocent people. It is the consciousness which is causing the borg to assimilate. Not the Drones. Picard's solution is akin to destroying every terminal that can access the internet in the world, because then we will destroy computer viruses...
AKA - with respect to the borg drones - Picard would be in a state of necessity when unleashing the paradox virus, even if the drones would be killed by it - and this is a BIG IF.*

*You see, 'I, borg' never established whether the drones would die.
During the episode, Picard choose not to dismantle the collective consciousness (destroying a 'culture') because he would have to use Hugh to do it, and using a person is 'bad'.
All the future victims of the borg and the fate of the borg drones were never even mentioned.
Why?
Because, as in 'endgame', the scenarists simply didn't think things through.

And as for self defence, in order to suceed in self defence you have to be able to show that you believed that there was an immediate threat and that in those circumstances your actions were justified...
You are in self-defense if you act to protect your life OR THE LIFE OF ANOTHER.
In 'I, borg', it was crystal clear - to everyone, but especially to Picard - that the borg were engaged in a genocidal campaign against, virtually, all other conscious beings in the galaxy - killing BILLIONS upon BILLIONS on an ongoing basis (let me guess, JB2005 - that's not 'immediate threat' enough for you).

With regard to the borg - acting to stop this continuing megacrime is self-defence, regardless of whether the borg target you during this specific second or not.

genocide can never be a justifiable defence. Never. If you're telling me that the Federation's policy is "it is better that you all die so that we might live" then I want the Borg to win...at least there's no malice in what they're doing...the Borg are the embodiment of the phrase "we're from the government and we're here to help you" and nothing more, there is no evil in what they do...
In 'I, borg', genocide was upon Picard, regardless of his choice:
He chose to allow the borg to continue killing and assimilating across the galaxy - becoming partly responsible for the death of BILLIONS, entire civilisations, because he could stop all this horror and didn't.
A lot of blood stains Picard's hands - inheritance from 'I, borg'.

And there's no malice on the part of a person that acts in self-defence or state of necessity. If you actually beleive there is, you don't really understand the concepts of self-defence or state of nesessity.

On the other hand, on the part of the borg, a conscious intelligence (as was repeatedly established), there most definitely is malice.
Consciousness = amenable to moral judgment.
The borg is no mere automata, no mere unconscious killer asteroid or PC.

Last edited by Edit_XYZ; January 7 2012 at 09:36 PM.
Edit_XYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7 2012, 08:44 PM   #403
Elias Vaughn
Captain
 
Elias Vaughn's Avatar
 
Location: Dead. Or in the Celestial Temple. One of the two.
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

No one's saying it's wrong to destroy a Borg cube that is actively attacking the Federation, especially if Starfleet has no alternative.

But there's a HUGE difference between killing in self defense and hunting down and exterminating everyone who wants harm to befall you.
Elias Vaughn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7 2012, 08:48 PM   #404
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Historically, lots of military forces have been made up of people who were enslaved, impressed, or otherwise coerced into service. If such an army attacked your village, you'd be justified in killing its members in self-defense. But that wouldn't mean that the correct way to solve the problem for good would be to murder every last slave in the enemy empire. The way to solve the problem would be to free the slaves by defeating the regime that forced them to fight.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7 2012, 08:59 PM   #405
Edit_XYZ
Fleet Captain
 
Edit_XYZ's Avatar
 
Location: At star's end.
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Elias Vaughn wrote: View Post
No one's saying it's wrong to destroy a Borg cube that is actively attacking the Federation, especially if Starfleet has no alternative.

But there's a HUGE difference between killing in self defense and hunting down and exterminating everyone who wants harm to befall you.
What about a cube that is preparing to destroy/destroying another civilisation - let's say, in the delta quadrant (a fact of which you are certain)?

Is it off-limits simply because it's not you the one doing the dying, Elias Vaughn?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Historically, lots of military forces have been made up of people who were enslaved, impressed, or otherwise coerced into service. If such an army attacked your village, you'd be justified in killing its members in self-defense. But that wouldn't mean that the correct way to solve the problem for good would be to murder every last slave in the enemy empire. The way to solve the problem would be to free the slaves by defeating the regime that forced them to fight.
And if wishes were horses...

The federation - and THOUSANDS OF CIVILISATIONS before it - could not even stop the borg in military combat, and the federation is supposed to achieve the FAR more difficult task of liberating the drones?
This option simply did not lay within the federation's capabilities - 'destiny' more than established that.


Also:
If a hypothetical slave army of an enemy empire was engaged in a mission consisting of the ongoing genocide of millions, and you - hypothetically - had the means to kill every last slave soldier, thereby saving millions of future victims, but didn't have any other way to stop this enemy army from its genocidal campaign (such as killing only a part of the enemy army or incapacitating it),
Then you act in self-defence/state of necessity when killing every last slave soldier of this enemy army.

There's a BIG difference between imperial armies as they existed during history and how the borg was depicted in star trek.


For Picard's decision from 'I, borg' to be even half-way reasonable, Picard must be considered as having assumed that the paradox virus could be used against the borg at an ulterior date. As such, Picard could have concluded that the decision to use the virus should be made by politicians or even the federation via a referendum, not by a mere starship captain.

Last edited by Edit_XYZ; January 7 2012 at 10:25 PM.
Edit_XYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:53 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.