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Old January 6 2012, 02:33 AM   #301
exodus
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Re: Does It Get Better???

AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
I completely agree with you on Far Beyond the Stars. How many times did the writers need to shove their message about racism down our throats? After five minutes of it I grew really tired of this episode. Frankly, I don't understand why so many people praise it and call it one of the best DS9 episodes ever.
Far Beyond The Stars isn't about racism as it is about finding faith. The story starts out by showing Sisko suffering from a lack of faith to survive the war, Benny is writing a story that he has faith will inspire others. Racism is the obstacle that that is testing his own faith to survive. In the end, the story ends with Sisko regaining his faith. Racism is just the back drop, no different space is the back drop from Trek to tell stories of social & political injustices.
"Far Beyond the Stars" is exactly what Gene Roddenberry created Trek for. Seriously, have you forgotten that Roddenberry was creating Trek during an American revolution when Civil/Equal rights was a huge issue? It's the exact reason why he wanted a multi-racial/mulit-gender cast. Trek is about understanding equality and diversity. That is why it gets praise and rightfully so.
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Old January 6 2012, 04:59 AM   #302
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Re: Does It Get Better???

exodus wrote: View Post
"Far Beyond the Stars" is exactly what Gene Roddenberry created Trek for. Seriously, have you forgotten that Roddenberry was creating Trek during an American revolution when Civil/Equal rights was a huge issue? It's the exact reason why he wanted a multi-racial/mulit-gender cast. Trek is about understanding equality and diversity. That is why it gets praise and rightfully so.
Of course I understand that Star Trek originally tackled issues like racism and sexism. But DS9 wasn't made in the 60's. Many issues that were extremely relevant back then, like racism, were not nearly as relevant in the 1990's. I'm not saying that racism had entirely been eliminated by the time this episode aired, but it wasn't an issue in the way it was back in the 60's.
Also, in your first paragraph you said that racism was only the backdrop of Far Beyond The Stars, and then in your next paragraph (the one I quoted) you stated that this episode was praised for its message about equality and diversity. What exactly were you trying to say? I would answer the question myself, but I don't care for this episode, nor do I understand why this episode is so widely praised.
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Old January 6 2012, 05:08 AM   #303
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Going back to Voyager, I watched two more episodes.

Warlord: An exciting plot and a terrific performance by the actor who plays Kes! I found the aliens-of-the-week for this episode to be pretty dull, and the scenes on the holodeck were a waste of time, but these were not significant issues because most of the story revolves around Kes and Teiran, and that is what interested me the most.
6/10

The Q and the Grey: I hate to say it, but this is probably the worst Q episode yet. The whole civil war plot was ridiculous nonsense, and Q wanting to mate with Janeway got old after awhile. Despite these problems, this episode had some redeeming qualities. The opening of the episode with Q stalking Janeway and trying to seduce her was funny (but it got old after awhile), and I also really enjoyed the scenes with the female Q, especially her scene with B'ellana.
4/10
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Old January 6 2012, 05:13 AM   #304
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Re: Does It Get Better???

I love "Warlord." Jennifer Lien did a great job. I only wish that they had given her more episodes like this where she could show off her acting talents.
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Old January 6 2012, 05:25 AM   #305
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Warlord was the only episode where Jennifer Lien shines, which is disappointing because she's not playing Kes.

Also, best thing about that episode is that from here on out, Neelix gets better!
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Old January 6 2012, 10:41 AM   #306
You_Will_Fail
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Re: Does It Get Better???

AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post

Of course I understand that Star Trek originally tackled issues like racism and sexism. But DS9 wasn't made in the 60's. Many issues that were extremely relevant back then, like racism, were not nearly as relevant in the 1990's. I'm not saying that racism had entirely been eliminated by the time this episode aired, but it wasn't an issue in the way it was back in the 60's.
Exactly my issue. Maybe if they'd tackled homosexuality or something then I'd find the episode a bit relevant and interesting.

RE: Warlord - It was a pretty standard episode not really taking advantage of Voyager's premise but the execution was decent although I thought the lighting was ugly in this episode like it is in much of season 3. It did at least provide some insight into Kes's character unlike a lot of other possession stories since it showed her resolve into trying to regain control of her body. It probably straddles "mediocre" and "good" for me. I think Lien's performance is pretty good here but I think her performance in Before and After and The Gift is better. The Gift clearly had the most genuine emotions on screen in any Trek episode.

RE: The Q and the Grey - It really was nonsensical trash. SFdebris's review said it all.
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Old January 6 2012, 10:52 PM   #307
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Re: Does It Get Better???

tighr wrote: View Post
Warlord was the only episode where Jennifer Lien shines, which is disappointing because she's not playing Kes.

Also, best thing about that episode is that from here on out, Neelix gets better!
I liked her in season 2's "Projections" and 3's "Before and After"... where she definately was playing Kes both times.

Neelix got better when TPTB let him "grow up".
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Old January 7 2012, 01:13 AM   #308
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Macrocosm: I don't think I've ever been as uncomfortable watching an episode of Star Trek as I was watching Macrocosm. The virus was disgusting, in particular the way flies flew out of the crew member's necks. I also didn't care for "action movie Janeway." It seemed like the producer's were trying too hard to copy Ripley from the Alien films with Janeway in this episode (Note: I'm not a fan of the Alien films, but I was just making an observation). Oh and, before I forget, the Tak Tak were extremely annoying. I hope Janeway blew their ship to pieces as soon as Voyager became operational again.
I did enjoy all of the scenes with the Doctor, and I thought the flashbacks to the crew being infected were interesting. And despite some of my gripes, this episode was exciting at times.
4/10
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Old January 7 2012, 03:52 AM   #309
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Fair Trade: A great episode about sticking to your principles and telling the truth. I really felt for Neelix because he was put in some pretty tough positions, but in the end he did the right thing and fessed up to his mistakes. I was a little bothered that he didn't fess up sooner, but again, he was in a tough spot so I don't entirely blame him. I also really liked the set design for the station; the dark corridors were very eerie and shady looking.
7/10
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Old January 7 2012, 09:29 AM   #310
exodus
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Re: Does It Get Better???

[QUOTE=AdmiralScreed;5542735]

Of course I understand that Star Trek originally tackled issues like racism and sexism. But DS9 wasn't made in the 60's. Many issues that were extremely relevant back then, like racism, were not nearly as relevant in the 1990's. I'm not saying that racism had entirely been eliminated by the time this episode aired, but it wasn't an issue in the way it was back in the 60's.
Also, in your first paragraph you said that racism was only the backdrop of Far Beyond The Stars, and then in your next paragraph (the one I quoted) you stated that this episode was praised for its mess{/QUOTE} Honestly, ,I don't know what say.
I myslf don't understabd how someone can claim to understand why Roddenberry created Trek but is baffled by why this ep. gets praised.
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Old January 7 2012, 09:42 AM   #311
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Re: Does It Get Better???

AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
Macrocosm: ...The virus was disgusting, in particular the way flies flew out of the crew member's necks. I also didn't care for "action movie Janeway." It seemed like the producer's were trying too hard to copy Ripley from the Alien films with Janeway in this episode...
"Ripley knock-off" was what I thought when I saw that one. I couldn't get past how the macro virus just flew through the air without any explanation. And that neck thing was hideous. Sometimes VOY just got carried away with the horror effects - the Vidiians, Tom's semi-transformed state in Threshold, and this. It's too grisly for my tastes, but at least there wasn't much of it.

AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
Fair Trade: A great episode about sticking to your principles and telling the truth... I also really liked the set design for the station..
7/10
The set design really was good for this one, but in its own way, I thought it was as preachy as Far Beyond The Stars. The way they delivered the moral about telling the truth felt so heavy handed. It was like watching an after school special.
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Old January 7 2012, 11:40 AM   #312
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Re: Does It Get Better???

spot_loves_data wrote: View Post
The set design really was good for this one, but in its own way, I thought it was as preachy as Far Beyond The Stars. The way they delivered the moral about telling the truth felt so heavy handed. It was like watching an after school special.
The difference was that "Far Beyond the Stars" was pointing the finger at the viewer/society we live in and preached at us. "Fair Trade" wasn't like that at all, it wasn't judging us personally, our history or our society. It was just a nice morality play.

I liked "Fair Trade". On a rewatch, I realized it was a great piece of character development and I could never hate Neelix like so many people do because he was at least a somewhat realistic character. He wrestles with real issues throughout the show and issues not to be taken lightly, this is the 2nd of Neelix's many great character episodes coming after "Jetrel" and before "Mortal Coil".

Re: Macrocosm. It was like "Genesis" but without any of the fun. "Genesis" kind of fell apart when Data and Picard arrived on the ship but we did at least get the great first act with everyone starting to behave strangely and we got some funny character interactions. "Macrocosm" just felt like a much duller and less interesting affair. A really mediocre episode.
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Old January 7 2012, 06:26 PM   #313
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Harvey wrote: View Post
stj wrote: View Post
The primary characteristics imputed to Kim in later seasons are a mild hypochondria and a mild resentment at not being promoted.
You'll have to refresh my memory as to where the hypochondria comes up. I don't remember it. As to being mildly resentful towards not being promoted, that would have been an interesting character trait had it actually been played (two lines of dialogue -- all I can remember -- don't count).
Kim was not a main character. But the mock character the Doctor creates in Author, Author shows the supposed hypochondria very clearly. The arguments with the Doctor as ECH and with Seven of Nine when his number in her minicollective for a project is dropped show the other.

Actually, Kim is also supposed to be both brilliant and a complete fuckup, but not in a comic Rodney McKay way. If Kim was really a main character this would have been a major problem in the show characterization.
When was he a complete fuck up? Kim's character was that he was brilliant at his work (as evidenced by joining the senior staff of a choice assignment right out of the Academy), but inept outside of it (as evidenced by his awkwardness with women as the show went on, but immediately illustrated in "Caretaker" when Quark almost talks him out of his money). Of course, we're also supposed to believe that he has a beautiful and attractive fiance back home. If that isn't geek wish fulfillment, it's certainly inconsistent writing.
Oh, my. Try rewatching Timeless, where Kim is somehow such a fuckup that not even the entire resources of Starfleet cannot help him to figure out a way to both save Voyager and get it home. All those years spent working on the problem, getting all that advice and second opinions, down the drain. As to his brilliance, there are of course numerous scenes, where he got to do the grunt work so that the main characters like Paris didn't sully our ears with technobabble.

Yeah, he was played as naive from beginning to end, except for the occasional outlier like "The Disease." Of course, in the true fashion of the series, Harry's mistake and Janeway's dressing down don't have any repercussions.
First, poor old Jammer's reviews are pretty crappy. The plot of Nightingale requires that not just Kim, who is emotionally invested in the people he saved, but the entire command staff of Voyager simply don't bother to question the Kraylor. This is an idiot plot, and as such is a major negative about the episode. Yet that review doesn't notice it? If you're going to ignore what I write, don't bother posting. Those reviews are third rate at best and do not constitute an authority to cite.

Second, what consquences do you expect? That Kim and Janeway will be at daggers' points the rest of the series? Or just something as simple as ginger efforts to reconcile? Since Kim is not a main character, the series isn't going to "waste" time on his relationship with Janeway. If he even has one. Yes, it's clear that he views Janeway as a mother figure, but it is never quite clear that Janeway feels anything reciprocal. And this is no accident. But you've made it clear to me that one reason the Kim character is so unpopular is that he has a kind of Mommy, and that isn't geek fantasy. Incidentally, Libby is not notably more beautiful than any other young woman in the Federation.

As for Chakotay, Beltran seems not to have wanted to do much besides his player persona, which by the way he does very well.
This comment is silly. From numerous interviews and convention appearances, its obvious Beltran wanted to be doing more, but the writers didn't give him the material.
Everything I've seen is that he wanted to do more scenes where he was dashing, sexy, commanding, maybe even macho, decisive, a man's man of bold action, the kind of man who has women like Seska adoring him. His player persona, which as I said still had no place on the series, because Janeway was the Captain, and the Captain is the primary decider, which means the usual center of action. Whether the second officer agrees or not, he obeys, which appears to be part of the problem with the Chakotay character, both for some viewers and Beltran.

Again, if you try to watch everyone on screen, when other dialogue and action is taking place, Beltran doesn't usually react if he doesn't have lines or action himself. People love to bash Wang's acting, but he usually acted like he was in the scene, even without lines or action. But then, most people talk about "wooden" performances, and to my eyes Wang wasn't that either. I almost never see criticism of Wang as hammy.
Sounds like a description of a bored actor to me, especially in light of Beltran's interviews during and after the series.
As I said, Beltran didn't seem to be interested in much beside his player persona. However, the differences between early and later Kim, who is a minor character after all, are still clearest if you watch, just as I was explaining here. Why quote this if you were going to ignore it? As it is, you're just confirming that you really agree with me about Beltran, right after you felt free to condescend for saying what you really think too.
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Old January 7 2012, 06:46 PM   #314
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Re: Does It Get Better???

stj, can you leave your debates about the show as a whole for another thread?
This is Admiralscreed's thread and he stated clearly he didn't want any spoilers here and we should respect his wishes so this probably isn't the best place for you to be talking about this since you're kind of spoiling episodes left right and center.
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Old January 8 2012, 04:23 AM   #315
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Re: Does It Get Better???

exodus wrote: View Post
I myslf don't understabd how someone can claim to understand why Roddenberry created Trek but is baffled by why this ep. gets praised.
I've given you my reasons for why I dislike Far Beyond Stars. If those reasons don't make sense to you, then there's not much more I can do to help you understand.
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