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Old January 4 2012, 12:28 PM   #121
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

^^

I think we can all see ourselves in this to some extent - even to join up and post in here identifies us as way more involved than the 99.9% of viewers who watch, enjoy, then carry on with life without really thinking about it too much.

I like passionate fans - my son loves Transformers. I am less than interested but we go to a UK convention and I really enjoy the two days. The fans are great.

What does unnerve me somewhat is the people that cross the (somewhat blurry) dividing line between fandom and odd behaviour. I remember a guy at a Trek signing in a comic shop I used to work in coming in full TNG uniform telling all and sundry that starship design was his passion and that he devoted all of his spare time to it - a little obsessive I thought ! Worse still are the excesses of fanfic, especially 'slash', turning Trek into something it really wasn't. Further out still are the people that confuse fantasy with reality.

I'm certainly not saying the Janeway supporters and posters are like the above, but I think that with any group, some may be on that spectrum !
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Old January 4 2012, 03:39 PM   #122
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
A lot of my favorite characters have been killed off in TV shows and books before. It's sad when that happens, but that's not what's important. What's important is how the series carries on without them, that the series acknowledges their death and that the surviving characters respond accordingly. Characters, especially in literature, don't get killed off arbitrarily. It's not like they killed her because Kate Mulgrew was unavailable to play the part, and I very much doubt they killed her because they just didn't like her very much.
Jesus, they killed off DATA and replaced him with a retarded cousin, where's the fucking petition for that one? I don't think Janeway fans would want to run a poll to see which of the two should be "resurrected" first by TPTB.
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Old January 4 2012, 06:30 PM   #123
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

FordSVT wrote: View Post
RoJoHen wrote: View Post
A lot of my favorite characters have been killed off in TV shows and books before. It's sad when that happens, but that's not what's important. What's important is how the series carries on without them, that the series acknowledges their death and that the surviving characters respond accordingly. Characters, especially in literature, don't get killed off arbitrarily. It's not like they killed her because Kate Mulgrew was unavailable to play the part, and I very much doubt they killed her because they just didn't like her very much.
Jesus, they killed off DATA and replaced him with a retarded cousin, where's the fucking petition for that one? I don't think Janeway fans would want to run a poll to see which of the two should be "resurrected" first by TPTB.
Quite !

With Data, however, you don't seem to get the hero worship / role model thing that Janeway (inexplicably to me) appears to generate in her fans. Data was a great character that I miss. I suspect most fans feel similarly, but that's it.

Janeway (and yes, my opinion is coloured by my dislike of Kate Mulgrew as an actor) was badly written, inconsistent and annoying. I cannot deny that something about her connected with her following, but it almost seems like a mother / sister / mentor relationship her fans project onto the character.
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Old January 5 2012, 01:56 AM   #124
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Janeway though fictional, was a childhood hero of mine as well and to make a long story short, I simply lived in a predicament as a child where there really wasn't real life role models to inspire me or look up to. I knew even then Janeway wasn't "real", but that did not lessen the impact of what character had on my younger mind. (And personally, I'd rather a child have a fictional hero over the neighborhood drug dealer...)


In my life thus far I have had fictional heroes and real life heroes at every stage and Janeway is definately at the top of my fictional pantheon.

Let me just say that I love the character enough that YES I not only read but succumbed to writing fanfiction during the latter years of the TV series and did my first fan-novel nearly 10 years after it ended.

I did the novel because she captured my imagination and I felt there was so much more to delve into with her character, and NOT because some stuffed suit had decided to kill her off.

Although I appreciate how strongly fans respond to her departure and I grieve with them and wish them well in their crusades, I also see the fear in other fans that this character would be "brought back" after such an ignoble ending. I understand Ms Beyer's (sp?) consternation over Spock's noble Sacrifice in "WOK" being diminished by his resurrection in the following movie and yet I can only say THANK YOU PTB for bringing him back. Without him... the latest Star Trek movie would have paled into insignificance for me.

Yes, there are weird Trek fans just like there are weird sports fans and weird soap fans and weird fans of rock & rollers and weird fans of politicians, but I don't really see anyone here that fits that category so I think we can move away that "topic".

"Where's the petition for Data?"
I used to like Data, but grew very tired of him in the movies and hated the ending of Nemesis since it seemed to grasp at the emotional impact of Wrath of Khan" without a ghost of a chance of achieving it. "Hey, we killed Data but here's his backup already, so don't worry about it." Yeah, the ending stunk and helped to end any chance of the TNG franchise continuing in the movies.

Well... I guess I should be thankful that Janeway never made it to the big screen. If her film performed as poorly, SHE would have been blamed for the demise of the movie franchise.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVmD4jhj_P0








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Old January 5 2012, 02:43 AM   #125
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

JanewayRulz! wrote: View Post
I guess I should be thankful that Janeway never made it to the big screen. If her film performed as poorly, SHE would have been blamed for the demise of the movie franchise.
Kate Mulgrew played Admiral Janeway in "Star Trek: Nemesis". It bombed. And yes, some people blamed her, in part, for that failing.
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Old January 5 2012, 10:13 AM   #126
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
JanewayRulz! wrote: View Post
I guess I should be thankful that Janeway never made it to the big screen. If her film performed as poorly, SHE would have been blamed for the demise of the movie franchise.
Kate Mulgrew played Admiral Janeway in "Star Trek: Nemesis". It bombed. And yes, some people blamed her, in part, for that failing.
That's really sad being that she's in the movie so long that if you blink, you miss her, lol! I love Janeway, but she really was insignificant in the movie and honestly, even if you take out her less than 5 minute cameo, the movie would have still done just as bad. The writing was sub par at best and most fans I think can agree that the ending just blew. TNG movies should honestly have stopped while they were ahead. Nemesis quite frankly, was the Trek movie that didn't need to be made. They should have let TNG go and let DS9 or Voyager take over the movie reigns or just not made a movie at all. I know that's a hard pill to swallow for TNG fans, but TNG had it's time in the sun and it was well past the time to pass the movie torch as well rather than have Nemesis steal some of its thunder and smear part of its legacy.
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Last edited by Killandra; January 5 2012 at 10:20 AM. Reason: Correcting spelling mistakes, lol
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Old January 5 2012, 10:33 AM   #127
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

In my life thus far I have had fictional heroes and real life heroes at every stage and Janeway is definately at the top of my fictional pantheon.

Let me just say that I love the character enough that YES I not only read but succumbed to writing fanfiction during the latter years of the TV series and did my first fan-novel nearly 10 years after it ended.

I did the novel because she captured my imagination and I felt there was so much more to delve into with her character, and NOT because some stuffed suit had decided to kill her off.

Although I appreciate how strongly fans respond to her departure and I grieve with them and wish them well in their crusades, I also see the fear in other fans that this character would be "brought back" after such an ignoble ending. I understand Ms Beyer's (sp?) consternation over Spock's noble Sacrifice in "WOK" being diminished by his resurrection in the following movie and yet I can only say THANK YOU PTB for bringing him back. Without him... the latest Star Trek movie would have paled into insignificance for me.
I concur all these points. Do you have a link to your work? I'd love to read it. I dabble in fan fiction from time to time, both writing and reading it...but I haven't lately with my day job, night job, and going after my second degree...Guess who's supposed to have page 8 done for a comic book turned in to her editor by tomorrow but is on here instead... (It'll be done, I only have a panel to go and we all need time to unwind, right?)

I was elated with Spock's return as well. Yes, the same can be said if Janeway returns that perhaps an aspect of her sacrifice will be diminished too, but there is a way that a comeback can serve a purpose that overrides the diminished sacrifice. Besides, in works of fiction, who says heroes must stay dead?
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Old January 5 2012, 11:08 AM   #128
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

With Data, however, you don't seem to get the hero worship / role model thing that Janeway (inexplicably to me) appears to generate in her fans. Data was a great character that I miss. I suspect most fans feel similarly, but that's it.

Janeway (and yes, my opinion is coloured by my dislike of Kate Mulgrew as an actor) was badly written,
inconsistent and annoying. I cannot deny that something about her connected with her following, but it almost seems like a mother / sister / mentor relationship her fans project onto the character.
For a large number of Janeway fans being female, by and large it's simply the appeal of a strong, independent, female leader, which in Trek or any other fictional realm or in reality even today are few and far between. These type of role models show young girls a positive influence and that they can achieve great things. Janeway as with other heroes, became a beacon of different things to different people.

It can't be denied that Kate Mulgrew was a path setter by portraying Janeway. She opened many doors for other women in sci fi. I also believe her fans loyalty comes from how she interacts with them and how approachable she is. I am on the opposite end of the spectrum where I just don't understand how someone could not like her, lol. To each their own.

For males, their pools of heroes are far larger to draw from. I love Data and hate the idea of him being gone as well. Males and females love him alike, but not usually in a hero type sentiment. It doesn't mean he's loved any less, just fans see him in a different light.

I will agree, Data is more popular than Janeway overall, which isn't a big shock being TNG is also the most popular Trek, but of course I think his popularity transcends that fact alone. Data is a character many fans could emotionally connect to and empathize with.

But, I don't believe there needs to be a debate or contest on who should be allowed to return or other popularity contest. Simply put: neither should have died.
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Old January 5 2012, 05:03 PM   #129
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Killandra wrote: View Post
Let me just say that I love the character enough that YES I not only read but succumbed to writing fanfiction during the latter years of the TV series and did my first fan-novel nearly 10 years after it ended.

I did the novel because she captured my imagination and I felt there was so much more to delve into with her character, and NOT because some stuffed suit had decided to kill her off.
I concur all these points. Do you have a link to your work? I'd love to read it. I dabble in fan fiction from time to time, both writing and reading it...but I haven't lately with my day job, night job, and going after my second degree...Guess who's supposed to have page 8 done for a comic book turned in to her editor by tomorrow but is on here instead... (It'll be done, I only have a panel to go and we all need time to unwind, right?)

I was elated with Spock's return as well. Yes, the same can be said if Janeway returns that perhaps an aspect of her sacrifice will be diminished too, but there is a way that a comeback can serve a purpose that overrides the diminished sacrifice. Besides, in works of fiction, who says heroes must stay dead?
You can find the link in the description of Possum's "trailer" for the fanfic. She did a great job, if I do say so myself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQvkoo66vYI








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Old January 5 2012, 07:34 PM   #130
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Killandra wrote: View Post
With Data, however, you don't seem to get the hero worship / role model thing that Janeway (inexplicably to me) appears to generate in her fans. Data was a great character that I miss. I suspect most fans feel similarly, but that's it.

Janeway (and yes, my opinion is coloured by my dislike of Kate Mulgrew as an actor) was badly written,
inconsistent and annoying. I cannot deny that something about her connected with her following, but it almost seems like a mother / sister / mentor relationship her fans project onto the character.
For a large number of Janeway fans being female, by and large it's simply the appeal of a strong, independent, female leader, which in Trek or any other fictional realm or in reality even today are few and far between. These type of role models show young girls a positive influence and that they can achieve great things. Janeway as with other heroes, became a beacon of different things to different people.

It can't be denied that Kate Mulgrew was a path setter by portraying Janeway. She opened many doors for other women in sci fi. I also believe her fans loyalty comes from how she interacts with them and how approachable she is. I am on the opposite end of the spectrum where I just don't understand how someone could not like her, lol. To each their own.
Firstly, it's nice to enter into a civilised discussion on this topic !

You are right that it was about time there was a female Captain in Trek if gender bias is truly be a thing of the past by, er, the future ! There have been strong independant female characters in pre Voyager Trek - I am particularly fond of Kira, but even if higher in rank (i.e. Admiral Nechayev) they were never 'in charge' on the show, i.e. the Captain...

I would have delighted if Janeway had been written better in a better show - I can't really move past the lack of quality and care in the making of Voyager. The lack of character development, silliness with power rationing yet use of the holodeck, infinite replacement of torpedo's and shuttles, battle damage disappearing, acceptance of Maquis crew, Maquis / Equinox crew that were never seen again etc. etc. all kill Voyager for me. In addition, Kate Mulgrews mumsy Hepburn thing just grates on me (yes, she may be a very nice person and could just happen to speak like that) but that's my take.

As I see it, Janeway did women a disservice - it was time for a great female lead character, and she wasn't it...
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Old January 5 2012, 11:28 PM   #131
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Killandra wrote: View Post
They should have let TNG go and let DS9 or Voyager take over the movie reigns or just not made a movie at all. I know that's a hard pill to swallow for TNG fans, but TNG had it's time in the sun and it was well past the time to pass the movie torch as well...
Ummm, the TV ratings for TNG in first-run syndication were stupendous (as were TOS in prime time syndicated repeat), and that in-built audience, plus the general public, was attracted to see TOS and TNG movies on the big screen.

Audiences for DS9 and VOY and ENT (the last two on a fledgling TV network that wasn't even broadcasting to some parts of the USA) got smaller and smaller and smaller. None of those series were viable properties for the big screen.
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Old January 5 2012, 11:40 PM   #132
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!


Firstly, it's nice to enter into a civilised discussion on this topic !

You are right that it was about time there was a female Captain in Trek if gender bias is truly be a thing of the past by, er, the future ! There have been strong independant female characters in pre Voyager Trek - I am particularly fond of Kira, but even if higher in rank (i.e. Admiral Nechayev) they were never 'in charge' on the show, i.e. the Captain...

I would have delighted if Janeway had been written better in a better show - I can't really move past the lack of quality and care in the making of Voyager. The lack of character development, silliness with power rationing yet use of the holodeck, infinite replacement of torpedo's and shuttles, battle damage disappearing, acceptance of Maquis crew, Maquis / Equinox crew that were never seen again etc. etc. all kill Voyager for me. In addition, Kate Mulgrews mumsy Hepburn thing just grates on me (yes, she may be a very nice person and could just happen to speak like that) but that's my take.

As I see it, Janeway did women a disservice - it was time for a great female lead character, and she wasn't it...
Likewise on the civilized discussion front. I agree Voyager had its share of issues (all Trek series do). Many fans have jokes and theories about the endless supply of shuttle crafts. For all it's faults, I still love it and Janeway. Could she have been better? Of course! But, I think what sold me on her was her compassion and never wavering from her principles. (Kate Mulgrew has even joked and agreed with fans that the writers made Janeway seem like she was bipolar by her contradictory actions).

Like you said, of course females always had a presence in Trek and Janeway wasn't even the first female captain, but the first true female leader we had.
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Old January 6 2012, 12:03 AM   #133
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Killandra wrote: View Post

Firstly, it's nice to enter into a civilised discussion on this topic !

You are right that it was about time there was a female Captain in Trek if gender bias is truly be a thing of the past by, er, the future ! There have been strong independant female characters in pre Voyager Trek - I am particularly fond of Kira, but even if higher in rank (i.e. Admiral Nechayev) they were never 'in charge' on the show, i.e. the Captain...

I would have delighted if Janeway had been written better in a better show - I can't really move past the lack of quality and care in the making of Voyager. The lack of character development, silliness with power rationing yet use of the holodeck, infinite replacement of torpedo's and shuttles, battle damage disappearing, acceptance of Maquis crew, Maquis / Equinox crew that were never seen again etc. etc. all kill Voyager for me. In addition, Kate Mulgrews mumsy Hepburn thing just grates on me (yes, she may be a very nice person and could just happen to speak like that) but that's my take.

As I see it, Janeway did women a disservice - it was time for a great female lead character, and she wasn't it...
Likewise on the civilized discussion front. I agree Voyager had its share of issues (all Trek series do). Many fans have jokes and theories about the endless supply of shuttle crafts. For all it's faults, I still love it and Janeway. Could she have been better? Of course! But, I think what sold me on her was her compassion and never wavering from her principles. (Kate Mulgrew has even joked and agreed with fans that the writers made Janeway seem like she was bipolar by her contradictory actions).

Like you said, of course females always had a presence in Trek and Janeway wasn't even the first female captain, but the first true female leader we had.
Well I must admit that despite having problems with it, I still religiously watched every episode when it was first broadcast, and a good few again when repeated. I just wish the showrunners had tried a bit harder - I'd have loved to have seen Ron Moores Voyager.
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Old January 6 2012, 12:45 AM   #134
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
Killandra wrote: View Post

Firstly, it's nice to enter into a civilised discussion on this topic !

You are right that it was about time there was a female Captain in Trek if gender bias is truly be a thing of the past by, er, the future ! There have been strong independant female characters in pre Voyager Trek - I am particularly fond of Kira, but even if higher in rank (i.e. Admiral Nechayev) they were never 'in charge' on the show, i.e. the Captain...

I would have delighted if Janeway had been written better in a better show - I can't really move past the lack of quality and care in the making of Voyager. The lack of character development, silliness with power rationing yet use of the holodeck, infinite replacement of torpedo's and shuttles, battle damage disappearing, acceptance of Maquis crew, Maquis / Equinox crew that were never seen again etc. etc. all kill Voyager for me. In addition, Kate Mulgrews mumsy Hepburn thing just grates on me (yes, she may be a very nice person and could just happen to speak like that) but that's my take.

As I see it, Janeway did women a disservice - it was time for a great female lead character, and she wasn't it...
Likewise on the civilized discussion front. I agree Voyager had its share of issues (all Trek series do). Many fans have jokes and theories about the endless supply of shuttle crafts. For all it's faults, I still love it and Janeway. Could she have been better? Of course! But, I think what sold me on her was her compassion and never wavering from her principles. (Kate Mulgrew has even joked and agreed with fans that the writers made Janeway seem like she was bipolar by her contradictory actions).

Like you said, of course females always had a presence in Trek and Janeway wasn't even the first female captain, but the first true female leader we had.
Well I must admit that despite having problems with it, I still religiously watched every episode when it was first broadcast, and a good few again when repeated. I just wish the showrunners had tried a bit harder - I'd have loved to have seen Ron Moores Voyager.
Ron Moore's Voyager would have been amazing. Plus we would have actually had a female lead worth rooting for. Come what may he got how to do strong women with fully fleshed out lives. President Laura Roslin blows Janeway out of the water...and she got to have a romantic life with a REAL person.
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Old January 6 2012, 12:54 AM   #135
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Killandra wrote: View Post
With Data, however, you don't seem to get the hero worship / role model thing that Janeway (inexplicably to me) appears to generate in her fans. Data was a great character that I miss. I suspect most fans feel similarly, but that's it.

Janeway (and yes, my opinion is coloured by my dislike of Kate Mulgrew as an actor) was badly written,
inconsistent and annoying. I cannot deny that something about her connected with her following, but it almost seems like a mother / sister / mentor relationship her fans project onto the character.
For a large number of Janeway fans being female, by and large it's simply the appeal of a strong, independent, female leader, which in Trek or any other fictional realm or in reality even today are few and far between. These type of role models show young girls a positive influence and that they can achieve great things. Janeway as with other heroes, became a beacon of different things to different people.

It can't be denied that Kate Mulgrew was a path setter by portraying Janeway. She opened many doors for other women in sci fi. I also believe her fans loyalty comes from how she interacts with them and how approachable she is. I am on the opposite end of the spectrum where I just don't understand how someone could not like her, lol. To each their own.

For males, their pools of heroes are far larger to draw from. I love Data and hate the idea of him being gone as well. Males and females love him alike, but not usually in a hero type sentiment. It doesn't mean he's loved any less, just fans see him in a different light.

I will agree, Data is more popular than Janeway overall, which isn't a big shock being TNG is also the most popular Trek, but of course I think his popularity transcends that fact alone. Data is a character many fans could emotionally connect to and empathize with.

But, I don't believe there needs to be a debate or contest on who should be allowed to return or other popularity contest. Simply put: neither should have died.

I'm sorry, none of this explains the obsessive attitude toward Janeway. I'm a black male and I love Captain Sisko (though the fact that he's black was less relevant than the fact that the man was badass)...but had he died at the end of DS9, my world would not have been crushed. My sense of self was not derived from Sisko. I did not need Sisko to be my role model...one gets that from real people that do real things in the real world. He was simply a cool character who's adventures I could enjoy until the moment that they came to an end. When it was over I remembered the fun ride and then moved on to the next cool adventure of some other fictional character.
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