Does It Get Better???

[Guy Gardener]

I thought it was realistc with out being creepy when sometimes Avery would kiss Cirroc on the cheek, forehead or top of his head during their father son chats... Did Brock do the same with Avery?

Jake went from dip shit kid, novelist, Dabo girl whoring, to a war reporter behind enemy lines matching wits against space Colonel Klink as a master spy to... Did anyone think he was moving in on Cassidy a little too quickly after his patre bought the farm?

The moral of Nightingale, a seventh season episode, was "Thank god I'm still a dipshit kid, I'll grow up later."

[exodus]

CaptainMatt wrote:

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Picard is a unique exception to the rule, if you are really going to compare him to the Voyager crew liking their time off.

It's pretty self absorbed to purposely be rude to others just because you don't wanna have a good time. It's kinda hypocritical to call out Q for his behavior and then show bad manners himself.

[AdmiralScreed]

Future's End: Part one was less interesting because it was mostly just exposition, setting up the plot by sending Voyager back in time, showing us the 1990's, introducing the guest stars, etc. Things picked up quite a bit in part two after the plot got rolling. Overall, I liked the villain and the girl (I can't remember their names), and it was fun to see the crew of Voyager interacting with ordinary people in the 1990's.
Part 1: 6/10
Part 2: 8/10

[You_Will_Fail]

I didn't like "Future's End" nor do I think it made any sense whatsoever.
So in Star Trek, all futuristic technology came from someone finding a crashed spaceship? So basically the universe they live in really IS totally different from us?
It raised too many questions and it was all very tedious for me.
I think I probably dislike it even more than "Past Tense". Preachy "wins" over nonsensical.

[AdmiralScreed]

I don't disagree with you about it being nonsensical, but it was still very fun and exciting. The Doctor's scenes in Part 2 were hilarious! But I can understand if you don't like it. It's not one of the better made episodes, but I must say that it is a lot more enjoyable than it has any right to be.
And how is Past Tense too preachy? It has a good message, and all around it is an extremely fine episode (one of my favorites of DS9's entire run). It's dark, emotional, features some great guest stars, and it's a great time travel story. I thought Sisko was absolutely great in this episode; it was definitely one of Brooks better performances from the earlier seasons. On my scale I would probably rate the entire two part episode a 9 or a 10. I know we're in a Voyager thread, but I would still like to hear why you dislike it.

[You_Will_Fail]

"Past Tense" was incredibly preachy. The high point of the episode's preachiness is where Bashir goes "how did we ever let it get this bad?". I almost expected him to stare into the camera and shed a single tear or something. Oh and Siddig's acting was beyond atrocious in that episode, it made my skin crawl. The message wasn't subtle, it was just so blatant and heavy handed.
Some of it was OK. I enjoyed some of it, I'd probably give it a 5 or 6 overall.

[AdmiralScreed]

You_Will_Fail wrote:

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"Past Tense" was incredibly preachy. The high point of the episode's preachiness is where Bashir goes "how did we ever let it get this bad?". I almost expected him to stare into the camera and shed a single tear or something. Oh and Siddig's acting was beyond atrocious in that episode, it made my skin crawl. The message wasn't subtle, it was just so blatant and heavy handed.
Some of it was OK. I enjoyed some of it, I'd probably give it a 5 or 6 overall.

To each his/her own. I personally think that Past Tense is extremely underrated. It's among my favorite 5 or 10 episodes of the series.

[You_Will_Fail]

I also hated "Far Beyond the Stars" too, another super-preachy episode. I just hate being preached to like I'm some kind of racist or snob.
Past Tense was basically shouting "How could you live in your society and be happy with it!???" for 90 minutes.
"Far Beyond the Stars" shouted at me for 45 minutes and I'm just like "Uh ok, I know racism is bad, I don't condone it in any way. Can I leave class early please?"

[AdmiralScreed]

I completely agree with you on Far Beyond the Stars. How many times did the writers need to shove their message about racism down our throats? After five minutes of it I grew really tired of this episode. Frankly, I don't understand why so many people praise it and call it one of the best DS9 episodes ever.

[stj]

Harvey wrote:

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So...what's there, exactly?

Being a minor character, most of the time an Ayala with a few lines of dialogue, Kim was just there. But if you bother to watch everyone on screen, admittedly hard to do with just one viewing, Kim just doesn't act the same. The primary characteristics imputed to Kim in later seasons are a mild hypochondria and a mild resentment at not being promoted. Actually, Kim is also supposed to be both brilliant and a complete fuckup, but not in a comic Rodney McKay way. If Kim was really a main character this would have been a major problem in the show characterization.

These things are not green, wet behind the ears or naive. They are not suitable fodder for vicarious identification either, which may be why people don't see the difference. Not suitable for vicarious fantasy fulfilment at beginning=not suitable for vicarious fantasy fulfilment at end. No change, no "character development."

The moral of Nightingale was really, "the network suits are micromanaging us to death." That's the only excuse for an idiot plot, which only "works" because Janeway, Chakotay, Tuvok never even think of looking into the rescued aliens' story. This is one of the late appearances of "Borg and proud" Seven to hammer the point in.

As for Chakotay, Beltran seems not to have wanted to do much besides his player persona, which by the way he does very well. Voyager's setup and the rather discreet attitutde towards sexuality in later Treks meant there wasn't any fallback for him. Again, if you try to watch everyone on screen, when other dialogue and action is taking place, Beltran doesn't usually react if he doesn't have lines or action himself. People love to bash Wang's acting, but he usually acted like he was in the scene, even without lines or action. But then, most people talk about "wooden" performances, and to my eyes Wang wasn't that either. I almost never see criticism of Wang as hammy.

[Lord Manitou]

You Will Fail wrote

Anyway. Yes, "episodic amnesia" is basically the hallmark of Voyager and a bigger crime in that show than in TNG or TOS given the fact it aired after those shows and had a different concept that lent itself more to serialization. But I just rate episodes by their individual merits like I would a TNG episode. However when it comes to rating the actual show itself, I obviously take a different approach and consider more than just all the individual parts but rather the whole thing.
__________________

You and alot of other people think character development in Voyager is completely non-existent. The series began with the premise that the characters were already developed. A bunch of people out of the academy has alot to do but not in the way of personnal development.
Janeway never elected Tom to get a second chance if she didn't know he was mature. She trusted and relied on all of her officers.
What I like about Voyager is every episode started a completely different story, following new tactics and exploring new scientific endeavors. This was less important in DS9.

[You_Will_Fail]

Well even Garret Wang said his character was nothing more than a cardboard cutout and yet you're superimposing all these supposedly visible character changes that were so subtly and masterfully inserted as the seasons went on. It must be great to live in your world stj where everything is actually better than it is in reality.

Lord Manitou wrote:

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You and alot of other people think character development in Voyager is completely non-existent. The series began with the premise that the characters were already developed. A bunch of people out of the academy has alot to do but not in the way of personnal development

What world do you live in? Cuz it sure as heck ain't the same one I'm in.

Lord Manitou wrote:

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What I like about Voyager is every episode started a completely different story, following new tactics and exploring new scientific endeavors. This was less important in DS9.

I liked that too, but single good stories each week isn't everything. There's the step back to look at the show as a whole - character development, cohesiveness, realization of initial potential and many things that Voyager did fail at. If that stuff doesn't concern you or you wave it away with bizarre logic like "the crew of Voyager were already developed so it made sense we saw no more development in the 7 years they were in this totally unique and life-changing experience" then that's your choice but I'd rather face facts.

[RoJoHen]

There definitely was character development for all of the people on the show, even Harry, but for a lot of these characters it's so subtle that it might as well not have happened. The only reason I noticed it on my re-watch of the series was because I flew through it very quickly. Watching it over the course of seven years, you make not notice it at all.

[Relayer1]

Lord Manitou wrote:

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What I like about Voyager is every episode started a completely different story, following new tactics and exploring new scientific endeavors. This was less important in DS9.

Less important in DS9 ? DS9 deliberately had an underlying story arc, depth and development - exactly the opposite of the stand alone episodic model for shows.

It wasn't less important - it was recognised as an alternative and inferior approach and dismissed in favour of a more mature and rewarding format.

[RoJoHen]

Relayer1 wrote:

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It wasn't less important - it was recognised as an alternative and inferior approach and dismissed in favour of a more mature and rewarding format.

Recognised by whom to be an "inferior" approach? I love arc storytelling, but you can't just throw shit out like that. They obviously didn't think it was that bad that they returned to it two years later when Voyager premiered.