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Old January 2 2012, 11:17 PM   #106
Lynx
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

DigificWriter wrote: View Post
You don't know how the decision to reduce Janeway's involvement in the post-finale Voyager narrative or the decision to ultimately remove her from the picture entirely was arrived at, so you really ought not to be passing judgment on why/how said decisions were arrived at. I also disagree with this notion that they 'ditched' the character of Janeway.
Maybe, but I still have the right to criticize a move which I find unnecessary and stupid.

Given that Golden's books take place, chronologically, BEFORE the events of Nemesis, her promotion to Admiral in Homecoming was done in order to sync up the post-finale Voyager fiction with the character's 'future' as shown in that film.
Yes, but I see no reason to tie her up behind a desk and use that as a reason for dumping the character. As I wrote before, they could have demoted her (which I might do in an upcoming fanfiction story, I'm getting tired of that admiral thing) or simply made her the same kind of admiral as Kirk was in the movies.

Regarding what the editors of the post-finale Voyager fiction could/should've done, that really isn't up to you to either decide or determine. You can disagree with what they did, but that doesn't change the fact that they did it, and criticizing them because of the decisions they made - at least with the degree of harshness that you and others have - honestly strikes me as silly and sad.
Dhat "hashness" might be a result of years of frustration with "people in charge". First Kes, then J/C and then Janeway, not to mention Kirk and Data too. And unfortunately I must admit that I often become nasty when I'm angry and frustrated. Something I like and have spent years of being a fan of is trashed by "people in suits" only for effects. Things like that annoys me.

It has yet to be seen if Neelix will have a role to play in future Voyager stories, but he has a small part to play in both Unworthy and Children of the Storm.
I just hope that they don't kill him off. Besides that, Kes and Tuvok are also missing.

You really don't get it, do you? It isn't your place to determine whether or not I'm a 'real' fan of Kathryn Janeway simply because I had a much different reaction to her 'death' than you did.
It might be the fact that I'm simply a different kind of fan with different opinions than you but I must admit that I find it hard to understand how someone can be a fan of a character and then so easily accept that this character is killed off, wiped out or whatever.
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Old January 2 2012, 11:35 PM   #107
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Mage wrote:
No, it's not. Not because you say 'we want it'. Give it a rest already, and move on. Janeway's not a real person, and it's been 4 years now. So please, just move on.
Sorry, but that's a suggestion I really hate. "Move on"? To what? To become bored to death by "Stargate Universe"?

If you have been a fan of something and it's ruined and taken away, it's nt that easy to "move on". Besides that, to "move on" is to surrender and that's not an option. As long as it's still a chance, we fight.

Relayer1 wrote:
Kes is missing, but she was written out in the show as being superfluous.
Tuvok is not missing - he is in the Titan books and still tedious...
Kes was never superfluous. There were characters who really were supefluous, especially among the recurring characters in seasons 4-7. Kes was a good character who should have remained in the series.

Tuvok is missing from the Voyager books.

RoJoHen wrote:
Yeah, you can't get upset about Kes being gone from the novels. She was written out of the show in Season 4, and in "Fury" she decides to go home to Ocampa. She has no real business being in the novels unless Voyager decides to go all the way back to where it started. Plus, at this point, she's probably died of old age.
No she's not. She's still alive and well!
http://lynx677.byethost12.com (the link "Kes stories")

And "Fury" doesn't count. It was made just to insult the Kes fans.
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Old January 3 2012, 12:08 AM   #108
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
A lot of my favorite characters have been killed off in TV shows and books before.
As for ST, I'd say all of my favourites have been killed off: Spock, Data, Jadzia, Janeway, Trip, and a few favourite background characters in the novels.

In the wider SF media: Robin, Golden Eagle, Martin in "V: The Series", Superman...

Traumatic at the time, refreshing for the main story, and bittersweet when/if they return.

Lynx wrote: View Post
And unfortunately I must admit that I often become nasty when I'm angry and frustrated.
You can get help for that.

Why not try writing your "nasty" post, but then clean it up by putting a more positive swing to it - and clicking "Submit Reply" only after you've removed any nastiness. If you're feeling hurt, don't inflict hurt back onto others.

You really can be in control of what you say online. And you might find your attitude in real life becomes generally more positive.

Lynx wrote: View Post
they could have demoted her...
You know what people would have said, "Finally, they promoted a major, ongoing female character into the Admiralty and what do the idiot novelists do? Demote her!"
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Last edited by Therin of Andor; January 3 2012 at 12:19 AM.
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Old January 3 2012, 12:33 AM   #109
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Lynx wrote: View Post
And "Fury" doesn't count. It was made just to insult the Kes fans.
This is the stupidest thing I've read in a while.

It was a shitty episode, I'll give you that, but it certainly wasn't written to insult fans of the character.
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Old January 3 2012, 02:23 AM   #110
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Lynx wrote: View Post
Yes, but I see no reason to tie her up behind a desk and use that as a reason for dumping the character. As I wrote before, they could have demoted her (which I might do in an upcoming fanfiction story, I'm getting tired of that admiral thing) or simply made her the same kind of admiral as Kirk was in the movies.
Christopher can correct me on this if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that we've ever seen a 24th Century Admiral given their own personal 'flagship' to command the way that Kirk was.

I also don't believe we've ever seen an instance where a ST author or editor blatantly ignored what was established by canon. They may have decided to 'undo' canon, but that's not the same thing as blatantly ignoring canon, which seems to be what you want Christie Golden to have done.

It might be the fact that I'm simply a different kind of fan with different opinions than you but I must admit that I find it hard to understand how someone can be a fan of a character and then so easily accept that this character is killed off, wiped out or whatever.
'Finding it hard to understand how someone can be a fan of a character and then so easily accept that this character is killed off, wiped out or whatever' effectively translates to 'I find it hard to understand how someone can be a fan of a character and not be in 'lockstep' with my view of how I think a fan of said character ought to behave'.

However, what you can't seem to understand is that you don't get to set predetermined conditions concerning how fans of a particular character or thing should express/conduct themselves vis a vis their enjoyment of said character/thing.
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Old January 3 2012, 06:13 PM   #111
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Lynx wrote: View Post
If you have been a fan of something and it's ruined and taken away, it's nt that easy to "move on".
Yes it is.
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Old January 3 2012, 07:28 PM   #112
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Disagree, it really would depend on the person.
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Old January 3 2012, 08:16 PM   #113
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
RoJoHen wrote: View Post
A lot of my favorite characters have been killed off in TV shows and books before.
As for ST, I'd say all of my favourites have been killed off: Spock, Data, Jadzia, Janeway, Trip, and a few favourite background characters in the novels.

In the wider SF media: Robin, Golden Eagle, Martin in "V: The Series", Superman...

Traumatic at the time, refreshing for the main story, and bittersweet when/if they return.

Lynx wrote: View Post
And unfortunately I must admit that I often become nasty when I'm angry and frustrated.
You can get help for that.

Why not try writing your "nasty" post, but then clean it up by putting a more positive swing to it - and clicking "Submit Reply" only after you've removed any nastiness. If you're feeling hurt, don't inflict hurt back onto others.

You really can be in control of what you say online. And you might find your attitude in real life becomes generally more positive.

Lynx wrote: View Post
they could have demoted her...
You know what people would have said, "Finally, they promoted a major, ongoing female character into the Admiralty and what do the idiot novelists do? Demote her!"
Get help?
Maybe I should try with this: "Help! I need somebody! Help! Not just anybody. Help! You know I need someone. Heeeelp!

When I was younger etc...."

Anyway, I can be a very friendly and charming person too! Most of the time I'm regarded as such.

Not to mention that I took the opportunity to take a look at your Andorian site. Very good! I like the Andorians and it's nice to get some information about them.

As for demoting Janeway, I can see your point. But such a move would do away with Janeway having to spend most of her time behind a desk and instead be out in space and explore.
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Old January 3 2012, 11:56 PM   #114
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Lynx wrote: View Post
Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
RoJoHen wrote: View Post
A lot of my favorite characters have been killed off in TV shows and books before.
As for ST, I'd say all of my favourites have been killed off: Spock, Data, Jadzia, Janeway, Trip, and a few favourite background characters in the novels.

In the wider SF media: Robin, Golden Eagle, Martin in "V: The Series", Superman...

Traumatic at the time, refreshing for the main story, and bittersweet when/if they return.



You can get help for that.

Why not try writing your "nasty" post, but then clean it up by putting a more positive swing to it - and clicking "Submit Reply" only after you've removed any nastiness. If you're feeling hurt, don't inflict hurt back onto others.

You really can be in control of what you say online. And you might find your attitude in real life becomes generally more positive.

Lynx wrote: View Post
they could have demoted her...
You know what people would have said, "Finally, they promoted a major, ongoing female character into the Admiralty and what do the idiot novelists do? Demote her!"
Get help?
Maybe I should try with this: "Help! I need somebody! Help! Not just anybody. Help! You know I need someone. Heeeelp!

When I was younger etc...."

Anyway, I can be a very friendly and charming person too! Most of the time I'm regarded as such.

Not to mention that I took the opportunity to take a look at your Andorian site. Very good! I like the Andorians and it's nice to get some information about them.

As for demoting Janeway, I can see your point. But such a move would do away with Janeway having to spend most of her time behind a desk and instead be out in space and explore.


The real question here is WHY seemingly "kill" Janeway to take her away from the main action as a serious plot device, unless they are already planning to bring her back in a future novel? Why do it at all unless it was designed and concieved as a plot device and they will be bringing her back in future adventures?
Just adding my three cents hope you do not mind, Lynx!
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Old January 4 2012, 01:21 AM   #115
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

CaptainMatt wrote: View Post
Disagree, it really would depend on the person.
If someone has difficulty getting over a fictional event then they really need to get their priorities straightened out. In fact, nothing that happens in fiction should require "moving on".
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Old January 4 2012, 01:53 AM   #116
Therin of Andor
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

CaptainMatt wrote: View Post
The real question here is WHY seemingly "kill" Janeway
Well, for about three or four years, there'd been a barrage of anti-ST tie-in fiction sentiments on the TrekBBS saying that Marco Palmieri and Margaret Clark, as then-editors, "didn't have the balls to kill off a main character". Fans complaining that fans only dismissed all tie-ins because tie-ins were always too constrained by what they could do. A small percentage of ST fans, sure, and not able to represent "all fans", but vocal and not necessarily correct.

Not that Margaret was specifically responding to those complaints, but the ST Relaunches were already playing with the ways they could stretch the premises of each show as they left the first-run airwaves. Killing off a main character always gives DC Comics and Marvel a huge spike in readership, and many of these curious (or jaded) fans often stay on, hooked by other ongoing subplots, or enjoying the fallout as the characters struggle to come to grips with the new status quo, or waiting for the inevitable resurrection.

Kirk was already dead (and already resurrected twice by Shatner). Sisko had just returned to the DS9 Relaunch. Admiral Janeway had been promoted off her ship by "Nemesis", the VOY Relaunch was lying fallow, and Janeway was Starfleet's highest ranking expert in the Borg - and had just been part of the TNG Relaunch for an arc of nine novels. It still seems, to me, a natural but brave choice to kill her off, thus garnering lots of free publicity (which it did) and attracting lots of new (and jaded) readers to the next/current batch of VOY novels (which it did).

to take her away from the main action as a serious plot device
"Nemesis" had already taken her out of VOY.

unless they are already planning to bring her back in a future novel?
No plans, just opening endless possibilities.

Why do it at all...
All of the above. And because they could. And because, while VOY and 24th century ST was on the air, they couldn't.

Lynx said: I took the opportunity to take a look at your Andorian site. Very good!
Thanks. I hope to do a huge update soon.
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Old January 4 2012, 02:02 AM   #117
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Kelthaz wrote: View Post
CaptainMatt wrote: View Post
Disagree, it really would depend on the person.
If someone has difficulty getting over a fictional event then they really need to get their priorities straightened out. In fact, nothing that happens in fiction should require "moving on".
HEAR HEAR!

Its just bizarre that any sane individual could get so emotionally invested in fictional characters that this would even be necessary. A colleague that I worked with used to be a big fan of Soap Operas and involved in that fandom. She enjoyed the whole thing but drew a line between her love of the stories and characters and the creepy obsessiveness of some corners of fandom. She would tell me tales of the women that got so emotionally invested in the "lives" of the characters theta they would forget that it was all fiction and that the actors were just doing a job.

I find it sad how invested some folks get over things that aren't real. Janeway is not some heroic trailblazer...she's just a character someone made up to tell stories. Save the hero worship for real people who do inspiring things in the real world.
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Old January 4 2012, 02:24 AM   #118
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Gotham Central wrote: View Post
A colleague that I worked with used to be a big fan of Soap Operas and involved in that fandom.
A friend of mine played a long-running character in a famous Australian soap opera. Her character was once made to have a miscarriage - and she was constantly being delayed in shops by sobbing women commiserating on her terrible loss.
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Old January 4 2012, 02:33 AM   #119
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Gotham Central wrote: View Post
A colleague that I worked with used to be a big fan of Soap Operas and involved in that fandom.
A friend of mine played a long-running character in a famous Australian soap opera. Her character was once made to have a miscarriage - and she was constantly being delayed in shops by sobbing women commiserating on her terrible loss.
Its so odd. How does one get to the point where they are so emotionally invested in fiction that they lose the ability to distinguish the difference between it and reality?

Its one thing to have fun with it and enjoy it for what it is. Its quite another to invest the same emotional energy in a fictional character as one would a real person.

What kind of person does that and is it yet another sign that we need to make psycho therapy more readily available?
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Old January 4 2012, 08:11 AM   #120
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

I can see your point here but I don't see the correlation between it and the proposed petition in which this thread was created for. Many shows, books, etc. have lost characters where fans loved so much that they made campaigns of some sort or another to try to get that character returned in the past. Some have worked, the majority have not, but no one knows what will happen until they try. Now, some of the statements in this thread may be carry some of the emotional sentiment similar to the examples stated, but the petition itself does not, so I signed it.

Being passionate about a show or character I don't think is wrong. I see no difference in fans petitioning for a character to return than fans arguing over whose the better captain, quoting lines from their favorite episodes, learning Klingon, or calculating the number of drones on a Borg cube. It's all relative. It's the passion that Trek fandom shares that makes our community so great.

However, I also agree, it does warrant concern if someone shows aspects of not distinguishing fantasy from reality. I think we can all say we've seen some scary stuff and people out there. (I personally am perturbed with the website out there that compares Borg actions and quotes with Biblical scripture). But, at the end of the day to each their own. I don't pay their bills, put clothes on their backs, or food in their stomachs, so who am I to say anything?

I can understand an actor being perturbed over the above supermarket scenario as well. I think most of us would have similar reactions. On the plus side, however, the actor did their job very well. If the actor can capture our imaginations for their time on screen and make us believe they are who they claim to portray, their experiences, etc.- then they've done their job. It is the fan's job to remember that it is a fantasy though.

Janeway though fictional, was a childhood hero of mine as well and to make a long story short, I simply lived in a predicament as a child where there really wasn't real life role models to inspire me or look up to. I knew even then Janeway wasn't "real", but that did not lessen the impact of what character had on my younger mind. (And personally, I'd rather a child have a fictional hero over the neighborhood drug dealer...)

Instead of the heated words, can't we all just agree to disagree and celebrate Trek?
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