Does It Get Better???

[You_Will_Fail]

stj wrote:

---

The scene in The Chute when they discover what the prison really is, is a dramatization of enlightenment about the world around us, as well as a cool visual. And the prison isn't just a cage for Paris and Kim but the prison of our limited understanding and limited roles in society.

Oh, brother!

Anyway. Yes, "episodic amnesia" is basically the hallmark of Voyager and a bigger crime in that show than in TNG or TOS given the fact it aired after those shows and had a different concept that lent itself more to serialization. But I just rate episodes by their individual merits like I would a TNG episode. However when it comes to rating the actual show itself, I obviously take a different approach and consider more than just all the individual parts but rather the whole thing.

[exodus]

Harvey wrote:

---

This is certainly true. Where I'm afraid we differ is that I don't think Star Trek: Voyager was the same occasional offender as every other series in the franchise (excluding the original series, which was produced in a different era).

To put it simply, episodic amnesia wasn't an occasional conceit of a television series on Star Trek: Voyager -- it was the modus operandi of the program.

I think Voyager was made for the next generation, just like TNG and DS9 was made for ours. Many of the die hard Voyager fans are aware of the flaws and don't care. I think it's ok to step back and simply say, "Voyager just wasn't geared toward me." and not be bitter towards it.(not saying you're bitter, just generally speaking)

[tighr]

exodus wrote:

---

I think Voyager was made for the next generation, just like TNG and DS9 was made for ours. Many of the die hard Voyager fans are aware of the flaws and don't care.

DS9 and Voyager ran concurrently, and I am a member of this nebulous "Next Generation" (tighr: est. 1983).

I vastly prefer DS9's serialized storytelling to Voyager's episodic. Arguably, a serialized format actually makes more sense for a show like Voyager with an established endgame. (Unless you consider Bajor's admittance to the Federation as an established endgame, that show could have just as easily continued after that event took place).

[exodus]

tighr wrote:

---

DS9 and Voyager ran concurrently, and I am a member of this nebulous "Next Generation" (tighr: est. 1983).

I vastly prefer DS9's serialized storytelling to Voyager's episodic. Arguably, a serialized format actually makes more sense for a show like Voyager with an established endgame. (Unless you consider Bajor's admittance to the Federation as an established endgame, that show could have just as easily continued after that event took place).

I always found DS9 to be more of "The Story of Sisko" than anything to do with Bajor. Bajor joining the Feds. was just a catalyst to get him out there IMPOV..

Frankly, I find Voyager fun. I think Trek needed a little fun thrown it because it takes itself too seriously. Besides Riker and Dax nobody from the TNG or DS9 crew knew what fun was, even on vacation. The Voyager crew made work seem like fun and not a burden. Nobody but Quark ever seemed to truly like what they did. They were honored but never thrilled.

Too put it simply, I liked TNG & DS9 because it's serious.
I like Voyager because I can allow my mind to go on vacation and enjoy.

[tighr]

exodus wrote:

---

Besides Riker and Dax nobody from the TNG or DS9 crew knew what fun was, even on vacation.

Funny you mention that, I watched DS9's "Let He Who Is Without Sin..." last week on Netflix. Dax is having a great time on Risa, meanwhile Worf refuses to take off his Starfleet uniform and eventually joins a puritanical movement. Hilarity ensues.

[You_Will_Fail]

exodus wrote:

---

Too put it simply, I liked TNG & DS9 because it's serious.
I like Voyager because I can allow my mind to go on vacation and enjoy.

A lot of people are like that, it certainly explains CBS's popularity!

[AdmiralScreed]

I think people are taking my comment about filler waaay out of proportion. While I do love episodes that have consequences and develop the characters, I have no problems with filler episodes as long as they are really well written. Times's Arrow, Frame of Mind, and The Survivors from TNG are all filler episodes, but I still really like them because they are great and interesting stories with good guest stars, interesting plots, and they make good use of the main cast.
Remember made very good use of B'ellana, but the guest characters weren't particularly original, and the plot was only semi-interesting. Those are the main reasons I gave this episode a 5 out of 10. Being filler was probably my most minor criticism.

[exodus]

AdmiralScreed wrote:

---

I think people are taking my comment about filler waaay out of proportion. While I do love episodes that have consequences and develop the characters, I have no problems with filler episodes as long as they are really well written. Times's Arrow, Frame of Mind, and The Survivors from TNG are all filler episodes, but I still really like them because they are great and interesting stories with good guest stars, interesting plots, and they make good use of the main cast.
Remember made very good use of B'ellana, but the guest characters weren't particularly original, and the plot was only semi-interesting. Those are the main reasons I gave this episode a 5 out of 10. Being filler was probably my most minor criticism.

Too bad you weren't here last year, we had a great discussion about "Remember" and the Holocaust. Very profound.

[stj]

Harvey wrote:

---

I see no reason why the events during the journey should neither be remembered nor have an affect on later stories. Life may not be as tightly structured as a carefully constructed serialized story, but it's certainly not a collection of incidents that are immediately forgotten and without after-effects. Unfortunately, that describes the vast majority of the stories told on the series. There's little progression from beginning to end, as evidenced by the way the production order was sometimes reshuffled when the episodes were aired (something you wouldn't know if production information hadn't been made available).

An individual's life is not structured at all. It is usually an act of imagination to superimpose a narrative on it. It is in fact such a truism that most people will stenuously deny that there are any patterns or narratives in social life, i.e, history!

Life usually does seem like of collection of incidents that are immmediately forgotten and without after-effects. Usually it is only the passage of time that leaves the marks of change. Genuinely life-changing events are those which cause a change in how daily life goes about, such as marriage, parenthood, to a lesser degree things like major illnesses or new jobs. People who like to spend a great deal of time discussing their personal history are well known to us in daily life however. They are usually avoided as being extremely boring.

So far as Voyager is concerned, note first how irrelevant most of these life changing events are to the characters in a show with Voyager's premise. In any event, despite the lack of emo about personal life, characters like Torres, Paris, the Doctor, Neelix, even a minor character like Kim just didn't act the same way at the end as at the beginning. It was in fact the characters who underwent the most drastic changes whose changes were the least plausible, namely, Kes and Seven of Nine.

I wonder if what's going on with such an objection, that has so little rational basis, isn't trying to express something deeper, which is that some viewers want the show to be about the emotional lives of the characters, to present the so rarely found in real life narratives about emotional growth, neatly dramatized and self referential, which is to say, self absorbed. The unspoken hope, even to oneself, is for a character who can vicariously live out the daydreams. The constant recurrence of tacit or explicit references and comparisons to DS9 happens because DS9 ended up committed to that kind of character "development." The number of characters on DS9 who ended up being exemplars in one way or another of Freud's "family romance," is a good example.

By and large, Voyager was about what happened to ordinary people, or even about somebody else, not what about what extraordinary people did in a grand adventure. Yes, technically, just getting home would be a grand adventure, but the people never really seemed to be satisfyingly special.

No, the show never really gets any better. Even Seven of Nine gets cut down to size in the end.

[Harvey]

stj wrote:

---

An individual's life is not structured at all. It is usually an act of imagination to superimpose a narrative on it. It is in fact such a truism that most people will stenuously deny that there are any patterns or narratives in social life, i.e, history!

I'm reading two contradictory arguments here. Are you saying that life isn't structured at all? Or, are you stating that people aren't willing to admit that structure (i.e. history) exists?

People who like to spend a great deal of time discussing their personal history are well known to us in daily life however. They are usually avoided as being extremely boring.

If you say so.

characters like Torres, Paris, the Doctor, Neelix, even a minor character like Kim just didn't act the same way at the end as at the beginning. It was in fact the characters who underwent the most drastic changes whose changes were the least plausible, namely, Kes and Seven of Nine.

You skip Chatokay, Tuvok, and Janeway -- I assume because those characters are pretty static for seven years. You'll have to make the argument that Kim undergoes much change. Despite an episode like "The Disease" he's almost always the wet behind the ears ensign that he starts out as in "Caretaker." The Doctor, of course, underwent a lot of growth and change in seven years. It's no surprise that he's the series' standout character.

The unspoken hope, even to oneself, is for a character who can vicariously live out the daydreams. The constant recurrence of tacit or explicit references and comparisons to DS9 happens because DS9 ended up committed to that kind of character "development."

If Star Trek: Deep Space Nine was committed to wish fulfillment, then Sisko joining the prophets, Bashir being genetically enhanced, and Odo leading his species would simply have been played as "awesome!" moments. Instead, we get Sisko being forced to leave his young family, Bashir's abilities being an embarrassing secret, and Odo having to part with his partner, Kira.

[stj]

The contradiction is in many people's minds. Historical trends and forces actually do make a narrative, if precisely what or even how many it is is very much a matter of debate. Nonetheless, oddly enough, people who will more or less insist that things just happen on a big scale will nevertheless force their own lives into a narrative. Since there isn't really a dividing line between personal life and "history," i.e., what happens to society at large, there are in fact larger narratives that include the personal. However, very, very, very little drama or literature is interested in realistically depicting people in context. Even though in the end that is the only "realism" that there truly is.

If you really think Kim acted the same at the end as at the beginning, you're just not seeing what's there. It's easier to miss since Kim was a minor character. A Vulcan changing is pretty much rewriting the concept. Chakotay had no real function after the electronic religion was dropped, and essentially became a minor character too. Expecting the captain to share an emotional life, given the hierarchical nature to Starfleet the show premised, is ludicrous. Janeway's role was fixed and that fixed what we saw. It wasn't as exciting as Sisko's character gyrations but much more realistic. Which is pretty much the real animus against Voyager, I think.

As for DS9's commitment to wish fulfilment somehow implying happiness, one of the most common fantasies is the suffering hero.

[exodus]

tighr wrote:

---

Funny you mention that, I watched DS9's "Let He Who Is Without Sin..." last week on Netflix. Dax is having a great time on Risa, meanwhile Worf refuses to take off his Starfleet uniform and eventually joins a puritanical movement. Hilarity ensues.

Remember Picard in "Captain's Holiday"?
He was going to go out of his way to have a bad time on Riza.
On Voyager, they were arguing over holodeck time.
They welcomed the idea of having time off.

[CaptainMatt]

Picard is a unique exception to the rule, if you are really going to compare him to the Voyager crew liking their time off.

[tighr]

Captains get an exception. They're not allowed to have fun. Janeway did those creepy Victorian holodeck programs where she was a headmistress, and [EDIT: excised because I forgot what thread I was in] in Spirit Folk, so I don't trust her idea of a good time.

Sisko, on the other hand, was always going to baseball games. He wins the fun Captain award.

[Harvey]

stj wrote:

---

If you really think Kim acted the same at the end as at the beginning, you're just not seeing what's there. It's easier to miss since Kim was a minor character.

So...what's there, exactly?

A Vulcan changing is pretty much rewriting the concept.

Based on what? Spock underwent a pretty dramatic change in the movies -- and I'm not talking about his (temporary) death.

Chakotay had no real function after the electronic religion was dropped, and essentially became a minor character too.

The fact that the character has one distinguishing characteristic doesn't speak well to his development.

Expecting the captain to share an emotional life, given the hierarchical nature to Starfleet the show premised, is ludicrous. Janeway's role was fixed and that fixed what we saw. It wasn't as exciting as Sisko's character gyrations but much more realistic. Which is pretty much the real animus against Voyager, I think.

Sisko had his relationship with his son, which was richer than any relationship Janeway had, but that dynamic was obviously not possible on Star Trek: Voyager. Of course, Sisko also had an interesting relationship with his first officer, and had Dax as a best friend. On Star Trek: Voyager, Janeway's relationship with her first officer whittled away to nothing by the fourth season, and her relationship with Tuvok could only be developed when the writers let Tim Russ be on screen -- something that didn't happen nearly as often as it should.