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Old January 1 2012, 03:51 AM   #91
RoJoHen
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Sindatur wrote: View Post
RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post
Why don't you start a petition to keep her dead and see how many votes you get.
Because I don't care one way or another. If she's dead, she's dead. If they want to bring her back, let them bring her back. It's not my place to dictate where the story goes.
OH...NOW, you're just being confrontational by acting all all neutral and stuff
I want it my way or no way at all!
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Old January 1 2012, 08:10 AM   #92
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Biffette wrote: View Post
This is an interesting point, but I am having trouble believing it. Do you have a source with which to back this up?
We were told this numerous times when the previous editors posted over at TrekLit; that all of the VOY Relaunch novels have gone through multiple reprintings, meaning that demand kept exceeding predictions, even though the parent show had left the air. Not so the numbered novels.

Pocket doesn't release figures to the public, and neither do most publishers. IIRC, again from posts by the previous editors when discussing the astounding success of the DS9 and VOY Relaunches, many of the older, numbered VOY novels only ever had the one printing (marked inside the books in reprints). When Pocket was publishing a TOS and a TNG book month, and a VOY and a DS9 the alternate month, making approx 24 books per year, the VOY and DS9 books were said to be under-performing expectations.
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Old January 1 2012, 11:32 AM   #93
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Brit wrote: View Post
Finngle Bells wrote: View Post
Why are you people still at it? :Cardie:
This is going to happen, you can bet on it.
No, it's not. Not because you say 'we want it'. Give it a rest already, and move on. Janeway's not a real person, and it's been 4 years now. So please, just move on.
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Old January 1 2012, 04:12 PM   #94
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

This is not about who sells more or who is a better character in people's eyes. To Pocket books it is about these things, but not to the readers. If you buy books based on popularity, then you miss out on some of the most remarkable literature out there.

I buy books based on substance, on character and most of all on text that makes me feel. Love, compassion, fear, anger and so on. The depth of Janeway's character is so consuming, especially for trek fans. She's "cut from a different cloth" which scares the heck out of most, who can only see past their own nose.

It is not my job to make you feel comfortable with hating Janeway, neither is it my intention to say you must like her. I just want her back and there is nothing wrong with trying to make that happen.
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Old January 1 2012, 06:30 PM   #95
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
We were told this numerous times when the previous editors posted over at TrekLit; that all of the VOY Relaunch novels have gone through multiple reprintings, meaning that demand kept exceeding predictions, even though the parent show had left the air. Not so the numbered novels.

Pocket doesn't release figures to the public, and neither do most publishers. IIRC, again from posts by the previous editors when discussing the astounding success of the DS9 and VOY Relaunches, many of the older, numbered VOY novels only ever had the one printing (marked inside the books in reprints). When Pocket was publishing a TOS and a TNG book month, and a VOY and a DS9 the alternate month, making approx 24 books per year, the VOY and DS9 books were said to be under-performing expectations.
Thanks for the info. Can we be sure that print runs for the numbered novels were the same size as print runs for the Beyer relaunch?
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Old January 1 2012, 10:21 PM   #96
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

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Lynx:

1) VOYAGER WAS AN ENSEMBLE SHOW, as are/were all of the other Star Trek series. It wasn't based solely around Janeway, nor should it have been.

2) To date, the only major characters from the television series who are not part of the Voyager Relaunch novels are Janeway and Tuvok. Everyone else is still there, so this idea that 'more people would buy the novels if they were about the actual crew of Voyager' is a rather ludicrous one, because the novels ARE ABOUT THE ACTUAL CREW OF VOYAGER (sans two).

3) Janeway was effectively removed from playing an active role in the Voyager Relaunch by Christie Golden in Homecoming, The Further Shore, and the Spirit Walk duology; Kirsten Beyer included her in part of Full Circle because she needed to use that novel to build up to Janeway's eventual 'death' as seen in Before Dishonor, even though she wasn't going to rehash said 'death' within the pages of Full Circle itself, but Janeway was, at best, a periphery character throughout the entirety of her particpation in the storylines utilized and presented in FC, so, if you're mad about Janeway 'not being part of the novels', you really ought to be ranting and raving against Christie Golden as well as Kirsten Beyer (although I personally think that this whole mindset of being pissed off about Janeway being A) not part of the Voyager novels and B) 'dead' is stupid).

4) Janeway was replaced as Voyager's Captain by Chakotay, not some 'weak female copycat', but you apparently wouldn't know that since you've chosen to boycott the novels because they dont adhere to your viewpoint of what Voyager is, was, and should be. I should also note that Chakotay replacing Janeway as Voyager's Captain was done by Christie Golden in the Spirit Walk duology, and set up in Homecoming and The Further Shore.

5) As Kirsten Beyer has already said, Asfarah Eden replaced Chakotay as Voyager's Captain, and she is far from being a 'weak female copycat' of Janeway, but, again, you apparently wouldn't know that since you've chosen to boycott the Voyager novels because they don't adhere to your viewpoint of what Voyager is, was, and should be.

6) Presuming that you and those who share your views re: Janeway and Voyager represent a large or 'majority' portion of the Voyager fandom is the height of arrogance and, quite frankly, extremely insulting to me personally. As I noted in the version of this thread that was posted in Trek Lit, I consider myself to be a fan of Kathryn Janeway's character. My being supportive of the decisions made re: Janeway's character and what Kirsten Beyer has done in relation to said decisions IN NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM MAKES ME 'LESS' OF A FAN OF VOYAGER THAN YOU AND THE OTHERS WHO SHARE YOUR VIEWPOINTS RE: JANEWAY AND HER INCLUSION - OR THE LACK THEREOF - IN THE VOYAGER RELAUNCH NOVELS.
1) Voyager was supposed to be an ensemble show and you're right about that it wasn't just about Janeway. but that's no reason for ditching the character.

2) Kes and Neelix are also missing.

3) I supopse that you're referring to herb promotion to admiral and the continuating scenario in Golden's books. But that's no excuse either for annihilating the character. They could have demoted her or made her the same kind of admiral as Kirk was in the movies. She could still have been in command of Voyager. If Janeway was shoved aside in Golden's books, all that could have been changed without killing off the character.

4,5) Chakotay was replaced by Eden, right? And why? To have a new female captain? Reil weird that they dump the best female captain Star Trek has ever seen just to replace her with another female captain. And no other female captain can replace Janeway when it comes to skill and all that. Whatever they throw in will be a weak copy.

6) I wasn't pointing at you in my previous statement even if it does surprise me that you state that you are a fan of Janeway, still you find it great that she's been killed off. What I was pointing at were all those people who didn't care for Voyager earlier on, all of a sudden showing up, praising the current direction of the books and express their happiness over Janeway being dumped.

And yes, Voyager (or more precisely, the "official" Voyager) has lost many ardent fans during the years due to stupid decisions of those in charge of the TV series and later on the books. First the way Kes was treated, then C/7 and now the annihilation of Janeway from the books. Most of those people are still Voyager fans but they don't want anything to do with the current direction of the relaunch.

Therin of Andor wrote:
Maybe they weren't. But they are now, and will probably go buy a few boxed sets of DVDs to see what they missed. Win/win for CBS. New fans are needed once all the older fans have bought everything they need.
Be careful what you wish for. I agree that new fans are needed. But if those in charge of the relaunch are trying to win new fans by annihilating characters from the TV-series, thus alienating the old fans, then they might end up in the same situation as certain rock bands who have abandoned their old style and become trendy in order to attract new fans. The result is ofthen that they first lose their longtime fans and then the new fans too who just see them as some trend of the week before they move on to new stuff.

As for new fans, let's say that some young person discover Voyager due to some re-runs on some SF-channel, then buys the books only to find that important people from the TV series are killed off or missing. Would that person continue to buy the books? No, I don't think so. I mean, I discovered my current favorite series NCIS in 2003. Would I buy books where, let's say Gibbs was missing and had been replaced by some other character? No, I don't think so.
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Old January 1 2012, 10:55 PM   #97
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Lynx wrote: View Post
1) Voyager was supposed to be an ensemble show and you're right about that it wasn't just about Janeway. but that's no reason for ditching the character.
But it kind of lessens the argument that Voyager without Janeway isn't Voyager.

Lynx wrote: View Post
2) Kes and Neelix are also missing.
Once again it's showing that you shouldn't comment about books you haven't read: Neelix isn't missing.



Lynx wrote: View Post
4,5) Chakotay was replaced by Eden, right? And why? To have a new female captain? Reil weird that they dump the best female captain Star Trek has ever seen just to replace her with another female captain. And no other female captain can replace Janeway when it comes to skill and all that. Whatever they throw in will be a weak copy.
If you're talking about female TV captains, don't you think it's kind of a hollow praise when you say Janeway was the best female captain Star Trek has ever seen, as she was the only female captain on TV with a regular role and therefore the onyl one with the chance to really leave a lasting impression with the viewers? (And if you're including TrekLit captains I can think of a few female captains I would say are better in my opinion, including the "weak copy".)

And another "you shouldn't comment on books you haven't read" moments: Chakotay is captain of the Voyager again, Eden is now the fleet commander.

Lynx wrote: View Post
As for new fans, let's say that some young person discover Voyager due to some re-runs on some SF-channel, then buys the books only to find that important people from the TV series are killed off or missing. Would that person continue to buy the books? No, I don't think so.
I could see this person continuing reading/buying the series if the book in question was well written. If all they want to read about is Janeway they probably are out of luck, but if that's the case I would argue that they weren't fans of the series as a whole anyway, and probably more a fan of Kate Mulgrew, so they probably should rather follow her acting career beyond Voyager than reading books about a show that for them was obviously little more than a vehicle for Mulgrew.
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Old January 1 2012, 11:27 PM   #98
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

^^
I don't think you get it. It's not about Kate Mulgrew. It's about Kathryn Janeway as the captain of Voyager.

It's about watching a show and starting to like it because of the characters and the chemistry between them. It's about wanting to read about the same characters when the series is over. Not to see a favorite character or the favorite character being killed off and replaced by a character who simply can't replace the old favorite.

It's about emotions, it's about liking certain characters in a certain series.

And I must say that I do find it a bit insulting to suggest that the Janeway fans should abandon Voyager and concentrate on Mulgrew's current career. I wouldn't have been particularily happy if someone had told be to watch "American History X" every day when Kes was dumped fom Voyager (not that I don't like that movie, it's great).

As for your comment about Neelix, what I know he's only making a "guest appearance" in the book. Not to mention that Janeway, Kes and Tuvok are still missing.

No, I haven't read any TrekLit book with female captains other than those who show up occasionally in a story. So far I haven't seen anyone who I would like to see in charge of Voyager instead of Janeway.
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Old January 1 2012, 11:35 PM   #99
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Lynx wrote: View Post
Kes and Tuvok are still missing.
Kes is missing, but she was written out in the show as being superfluous.

Tuvok is not missing - he is in the Titan books and still tedious...
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Old January 1 2012, 11:45 PM   #100
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
Kes and Tuvok are still missing.
Kes is missing, but she was written out in the show as bering superfuous.
Yeah, you can't get upset about Kes being gone from the novels. She was written out of the show in Season 4, and in "Fury" she decides to go home to Ocampa. She has no real business being in the novels unless Voyager decides to go all the way back to where it started. Plus, at this point, she's probably died of old age.
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Old January 2 2012, 01:47 AM   #101
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Wow. Popped in here and.. wow. Shocking how poorly other people have been treated here for simply voicing a request which was made politely I thought .. I'm going to go sign their petition not because I really give a hoot but simply because I feel horrible that anyone would receive the sort of responses for voicing their thoughts on a public forum.

Wow.. just.. wow..

Dudes really?

Not returning to this thread for certain.
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Old January 2 2012, 05:00 AM   #102
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Syn.Sixx wrote: View Post
Therin of Andor wrote: View Post

There's nothing to stop an author pitching a Janeway story in which her death in the other 24th century Relaunch novels is ignored. For example, there is already the novelization of "Star Trek Online: The Needs of the Many", in which Janeway is alive long after Romulus is destroyed.

Therin makes a great point! I know I would happily buy a 'new' novel series based on that concept where Admiral Janeway is still alive.

Really that's what we're asking for (at least from my point of view)

I know some people didn't like Janeway. And that's perfectly fine with me really.. what I don't like is the attitude that killing a major canon character off in such a pointless fashion (and again, that's my opinion where I state it was pointless and may not be what others think).

I have continued to read the novels without her, in the hope that because she was taken into the Q Continuum that she WOULD indeed make her return at some point in the storyline which had not yet been reached.

I've joined into this movement because we've now had several novels without her and I find them disappointing and just.. off. It just doesn't feel like Voyager without Kathryn Janeway!
I concur.
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Old January 2 2012, 05:59 AM   #103
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Syn, do you know why you were treated less than courteously in this and the other thread? Because we've seen countless online petitions for this thing and that thing in the Trek world, and they never work, and the people who champion them are usually full of self-righteous vitriol and conspiracy theories about TPTB "ignoring the fans". Witness the bullshit surrounding Trek 2009. Your OP contains plenty of it. The other thread is even more offensive (not you, but others on "your side").

It's not bringing back Janeway that bothers people. If the authors choose to do it, and the story makes sense, people will read it and enjoy it. The disrespect you show towards the people who write, edit, and publish these books is childish and wrong-headed, and it reflects poorly on everything else you say.
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Old January 2 2012, 10:58 PM   #104
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Lynx wrote: View Post
Voyager was supposed to be an ensemble show and you're right about that it wasn't just about Janeway. but that's no reason for ditching the character.
You don't know how the decision to reduce Janeway's involvement in the post-finale Voyager narrative or the decision to ultimately remove her from the picture entirely was arrived at, so you really ought not to be passing judgment on why/how said decisions were arrived at. I also disagree with this notion that they 'ditched' the character of Janeway.

I supopse that you're referring to herb promotion to admiral and the continuating scenario in Golden's books. But that's no excuse either for annihilating the character. They could have demoted her or made her the same kind of admiral as Kirk was in the movies. She could still have been in command of Voyager. If Janeway was shoved aside in Golden's books, all that could have been changed without killing off the character.
Given that Golden's books take place, chronologically, BEFORE the events of Nemesis, her promotion to Admiral in Homecoming was done in order to sync up the post-finale Voyager fiction with the character's 'future' as shown in that film.

Regarding what the editors of the post-finale Voyager fiction could/should've done, that really isn't up to you to either decide or determine. You can disagree with what they did, but that doesn't change the fact that they did it, and criticizing them because of the decisions they made - at least with the degree of harshness that you and others have - honestly strikes me as silly and sad.

Kes and Neelix are also missing.
It has yet to be seen if Neelix will have a role to play in future Voyager stories, but he has a small part to play in both Unworthy and Children of the Storm.

Chakotay was replaced by Eden, right? And why? To have a new female captain? Reil weird that they dump the best female captain Star Trek has ever seen just to replace her with another female captain. And no other female captain can replace Janeway when it comes to skill and all that. Whatever they throw in will be a weak copy.
As I said in my response to your first and third points, you have no idea how/why the decision to introduce the character of Eden was made, so you really have no basis for judging said decision(s).

I wasn't pointing at you in my previous statement even if it does surprise me that you state that you are a fan of Janeway, still you find it great that she's been killed off. What I was pointing at were all those people who didn't care for Voyager earlier on, all of a sudden showing up, praising the current direction of the books and express their happiness over Janeway being dumped.
You really don't get it, do you? It isn't your place to determine whether or not I'm a 'real' fan of Kathryn Janeway simply because I had a much different reaction to her 'death' than you did.
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Old January 2 2012, 11:08 PM   #105
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

A lot of my favorite characters have been killed off in TV shows and books before. It's sad when that happens, but that's not what's important. What's important is how the series carries on without them, that the series acknowledges their death and that the surviving characters respond accordingly. Characters, especially in literature, don't get killed off arbitrarily. It's not like they killed her because Kate Mulgrew was unavailable to play the part, and I very much doubt they killed her because they just didn't like her very much.
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