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Old December 31 2011, 11:57 PM   #61
RoJoHen
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Brit wrote: View Post
RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post

But if the "customer" wants something else, they are well within their rights to ask for what that want and continue to ask until they get it. These readers want her back. If these writers don't want to bring her back then they should get someone else that will.
That's not how fiction works.
LOL that is exactly how fiction works, all you have to do for a plot is ask the right question.
Let me rephrase. That's not how fiction should work. An author should have the right to do whatever he wants with the characters at his disposal (as long as the publisher agrees). Fans shouldn't have the power to change that.
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Old January 1 2012, 12:10 AM   #62
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post
RoJoHen wrote: View Post

That's not how fiction works.
LOL that is exactly how fiction works, all you have to do for a plot is ask the right question.
Let me rephrase. That's not how fiction should work. An author should have the right to do whatever he wants with the characters at his disposal (as long as the publisher agrees). Fans shouldn't have the power to change that.
How do you manage that, writers write books, fans buy the books. If fans refuse to buy the books they don't want to read, and the publishers starts to lose money, then the publisher gets writers to write the books fans want. That is ultimate power and there is no way for you to make fans purchase what they don't want to read. No market, no books. That little utopia you think you want disappeared when publishers stopped being tax write offs and had to try to be profitable. It's all about money and has been for years.
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Old January 1 2012, 12:14 AM   #63
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

[QUOTE=Gotham Central;5512213]
The Shatner books, Trek Online and enve the JJ Verse/Countdown comics are NOT part of Trek Lit continuity. Sisko was NEVER dead and said that he would return...how many times do you people need to be told that! Those characters that were killed remain dead in TrekLit. Kirk...STILL DEAD. Data...STILL DEAD. Conversely, Janeway IS ALIVE in the same Trek Online Universe with Data. [QUOTE]

"You people"?

Really? There are quite a few of us here who support the idea and hope of seeing Janeway return to the novels and we can do so without such crass comments as "you people", said in a tone to imply there is something inherently wrong with a group of Voyager fans who want Janeway back.

There is NOTHING wrong with us.

We're still here, and still trying in spite of the rude remarks, and outright hostility continually thrown at us by others who don't feel there is a need to even pretend as such niceties as courtesy to others.


How about this...push Kate Mulgrew to write her own novels with Admiral Janeway so that, like Shatner, they can exist outside of the regular timeline and the rest of us can go on enjoying her not being a part of mainline Trek Lit. But for fraks sake...stop pretending like this is some kind of conspiracy. Let characters that die stay dead. Spock's resurrection was miraculous precisely because it never happens.
What do you mean Spock's resurrection was miraculous because it never happened? He was dead! They buried him in space inside a modified photon torpedo and his body was destroyed then regenerated by the Genesis Device!

Of course it happened!

Stop trying to bully others because you personally don't like or agree with our view point. You're allowed to have your own opinion, but being nasty and trying to degrade or somehow trivialize what we say and what we hope for is just plain rude.

Last edited by Syn.Sixx; January 1 2012 at 12:16 AM. Reason: Error in quote code
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Old January 1 2012, 12:14 AM   #64
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Gotham Central wrote: View Post
Violet.Phoenix wrote: View Post
I don't think it's right for there to be bias against Janeway simply because she was a woman; we should be beyond that kind of prejudice now in our society.
You realize that the ONLY people that ever mention the fact that Janeway was a woman are her fans. Her detractors never even mention her gender. What's worse, her fans are so obsessed with her gender that they think that she should be exempt from any of the dangers that her male colleagues face. In effect they want her protected BECAUSE she is a woman.
Yes we want her protected because she is a trek character, we also want Picard, and everyone else we saw on the screen protected in exactly the same way. As unhappy as I am with Kathryn Janeway's death, I am just as unhappy with the way Trek lit has mutilated Ben Sisko's character.
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Old January 1 2012, 12:15 AM   #65
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Syn.Sixx wrote: View Post
To CoveSanta, who said that online petitions are a worthless means of getting attention,that's not true. Online petitions do work, as has been proven by countless successful efforts over the years. The only way it doesn't work is if someone just shakes their head and says "It's not worth even trying.."

You'll never accomplish anything if you don't try. The online petition is only one part of what the group is trying to do, there are also letter writing campaigns to send mail to the publishers through the postal service.

It may seem like in the world today, something like this isn't that big of a deal but to some of us, it's worth taking a moment of our time to stand up and show support for the idea. It really doesn't take more than a minute or two to sign, it doesn't take more than a few minutes to print a letter and place it into an addressed envelope and stick a stamp on it.

I'm doing this because it's something I'd like to see. And I know I'm not the only one who feels that the novel-verse books, without Kathryn Janeway.. are not Voyager.

Instead of Fleet Captain Eden leading things.. put Admiral Janeway in her place. Leave Chakotay as Captain of Voyager.. and continue with the characters and people from the series who those of us who are fans loved to start with!
I said this in the duplicate thread over in Trek Lit, but online petitions concerning fictional propertiesare rarely given any credence, and are even more rarely successful. The only two instances that I can think of in recent history where online petition campaigns were successful are the temporary renewals of Jericho and Pushing Daisies.

If you're certain that there are 'countless successful efforts' out there to refute what myself and CoveSanta have said re: online petitions that concern fictional properties, you might want to try citing them specifically instead of making generic statements.

BTW, it doesn't look like you saw what I posted in the thread in Trek Lit, so I'm going to reiterate part of what I said there:
You can't beg people to support your cause.

It doesn't matter how important you might think your cause is. People will support it - or ignore it - based on their own personal viewpoints/feelings, not because you went out and asked them to sign an online petition that will most likely have absolutely no effect whatsoever on the direction that the Voyager Relaunch novels go.

If you guys want to waste your own time in what will more than likely turn out to be a futile effort, go right ahead, but don't expect to find much support from people who aren't already in your little 'circle'.
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Old January 1 2012, 12:16 AM   #66
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Brit wrote: View Post
RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post

LOL that is exactly how fiction works, all you have to do for a plot is ask the right question.
Let me rephrase. That's not how fiction should work. An author should have the right to do whatever he wants with the characters at his disposal (as long as the publisher agrees). Fans shouldn't have the power to change that.
How do you manage that, writers write books, fans buy the books. If fans refuse to buy the books they don't want to read, and the publishers starts to lose money, then the publisher gets writers to write the books fans want. That is ultimate power and there is no way for you to make fans purchase what they don't want to read. No market, no books. That little utopia you think you want disappeared when publishers stopped being tax write offs and had to try to be profitable. It's all about money and has been for years.
You're right, but somehow I don't think Janeway's absence is killing the series.
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Old January 1 2012, 12:24 AM   #67
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Brit wrote: View Post
LOL that is exactly how fiction works, all you have to do for a plot is ask the right question.
Your line of thinking only really works with tie-in fiction, and it only works if there's actually an issue with overall Voyager novel sales, which, as Therin pointed out to Lynx, there clearly isn't.

As I said above, you and the people who share your viewpoints are free to waste your own time in what will more than likely prove to be a futile effort to force an unnecessary change simply because you think said change should be made, but don't expect others outside your 'circle' to support your cause.

Regarding hostility towards you guys, it only comes when you try and act like your opinions are the only ones that matter, and when you try to 'force' those of us who don't share your viewpoints/opinions to support your cause by insinuating that, if we don't support your cause, we're not 'true' Janeway or Voyager fans.

I posted in the last thread where this whole topic was breached, and you were one of the people I started arguing with on this very point, so it isn't like this whole issue of hostility is something that's taken you guys by surprise. If you don't want to be approached with hostility, don't come in trying to push your viewpoints on other people, especially people who don't share said viewpoints.
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Old January 1 2012, 12:36 AM   #68
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post
RoJoHen wrote: View Post

Let me rephrase. That's not how fiction should work. An author should have the right to do whatever he wants with the characters at his disposal (as long as the publisher agrees). Fans shouldn't have the power to change that.
How do you manage that, writers write books, fans buy the books. If fans refuse to buy the books they don't want to read, and the publishers starts to lose money, then the publisher gets writers to write the books fans want. That is ultimate power and there is no way for you to make fans purchase what they don't want to read. No market, no books. That little utopia you think you want disappeared when publishers stopped being tax write offs and had to try to be profitable. It's all about money and has been for years.
You're right, but somehow I don't think Janeway's absence is killing the series.
The only thing to be proved is that there is a market for her return. The only thing we have to prove is that there are more fans that want to read about Kathryn Janeway than want Kathryn Janeway dead. Why don't you start a petition to keep her dead and see how many votes you get.
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Old January 1 2012, 12:42 AM   #69
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Those who regularly enjoy Star Trek (TV series or books) are already picked out and ridiculed by many people who can't stand the whole franchise. We face opposition from all sides because we are 'Trekkers', we worship at the altar of Gene Roddenberry. We all claim to be forward thinking, open-minded people, and yet we can't even disagree in a civil and mature manner???
It doesn't matter that Janeway is a fictional character, she is still important to her fans, why should they be ridiculed for showing that support?
Live and let live. Think not of what divides us, whether that be which series is better or which characters are loved the most. But of what joins us together under the banner of Star Trek: A good story, human compassion and all those other lessons that those who grew up watching Star Trek show on a daily basis.
In-fighting just lends those who hate Star Trek more ammunition to aim at us all!

Besides, it's not like we're asking for her to come back immediately, just bring her back eventually. Don't hang a lantern on her story and forget about her. Could you do that to Picard? Or Sisko? Or Kirk? Or any other character from Star Trek???

If you don't want to sign the petition, then don't. No-one is making you, or trying to make you.
All we are doing is trying to spread the message in as many places as possible, so that those that would like to see Janeway return to the series can get involved with others who share that viewpoint. This isn't about forcing our opinion down your throat, or discrediting it, this is about trying to bring back a character that we all liked.
If that displeases you, then by all means: Leave.
Not all of us boycott the books, I still buy them and enjoyed them. I have no complaints about the characters brought into the Voyager storyline, I just find the books to be missing something, and that something is Janeway.
If that upsets you then I'll say this: I grew up watching Voyager, and I find myself missing Janeway (as an Admiral or Captain or just a guiding force). The crew in the books has had a while to grieve for her, but they can't get her back. Why should her fans not be allowed the same right?
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Old January 1 2012, 12:44 AM   #70
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

I'd just like to say that I don't want to argue. I just feel like we all should be able to state our opinions but not be bashed for it. We're all here because we like Star Trek, not to pinpoint flaws and argue over them. Some people liked Janeway, some didn't and I'm okay with that. Some of us want her back in the books, some don't. We all have our causes, and if we choose to support them, then that's our choice.
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Old January 1 2012, 12:48 AM   #71
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

DigificWriter wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post
LOL that is exactly how fiction works, all you have to do for a plot is ask the right question.
Your line of thinking only really works with tie-in fiction, and it only works if there's actually an issue with overall Voyager novel sales, which, as Therin pointed out to Lynx, there clearly isn't.

As I said above, you and the people who share your viewpoints are free to waste your own time in what will more than likely prove to be a futile effort to force an unnecessary change simply because you think said change should be made, but don't expect others outside your 'circle' to support your cause.

Regarding hostility towards you guys, it only comes when you try and act like your opinions are the only ones that matter, and when you try to 'force' those of us who don't share your viewpoints/opinions to support your cause by insinuating that, if we don't support your cause, we're not 'true' Janeway or Voyager fans.

I posted in the last thread where this whole topic was breached, and you were one of the people I started arguing with on this very point, so it isn't like this whole issue of hostility is something that's taken you guys by surprise. If you don't want to be approached with hostility, don't come in trying to push your viewpoints on other people, especially people who don't share said viewpoints.

DigificWriter, I've sent many posts here where I've said quite clearly that others are allowed to not like Voyager. You don't have to like Janeway. You don't have to agree with how we feel. That's not an issue at all for me and I've said it enough already to show the truth in that statement.

You (and anyone else) are allowed to have your own viewpoint that doesn't match ours.

In general I've been considerably more respectful of that other viewpoint while standing firm to my own. I can't and won't speak for the actions of others in the past, present or future who voice their opinions on the matter. However, if someone is rude I am also quite willing and able to address that.

It's amazing how at so many trek sites, people are so hostile and outright mean to one another for a different view point. I have admitted freely that Voyager had flaws both in its premise and in its characters however, those flaws were due to the writing and direction given by whoever happened to be in control of the franchise at that point. Heck even at the "Bring Back Janeway" facebook page, I posted a link to an article at GiantFreakingRobot dot come which was really not very pro-Voyager or even pro-Janeway but which I still think was kind of funny in it's message.

If you want to read it.. it's right here:

http://www.giantfreakinrobot.com/tel...er-worked.html

I quite honestly thought some of what they said was hilarious.


People talk about Janeway's actions but really, the problem there is deeper in that someone in control of the series approved it.

Voyager wasn't perfect.

Janeway wasn't perfect.

Life itself, isn't perfect. Yes there are things I can and do support which make more of a world impact (Recycling efforts, Autism Awareness as I have 2 autistic nephews who I love dearly, just to name two).

This is something that's just a little fun for me. I loved Voyager and I loved Kathryn Janeway because of those flaws.

I hope that through all of this that we'll accomplish our goal and see some new Voyager based novels with Janeway back.


Is it so terribly difficult to just say that you don't agree without having to be quite so hostile about it?
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Old January 1 2012, 12:53 AM   #72
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Syn.Sixx wrote: View Post
DigificWriter wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post
LOL that is exactly how fiction works, all you have to do for a plot is ask the right question.
Your line of thinking only really works with tie-in fiction, and it only works if there's actually an issue with overall Voyager novel sales, which, as Therin pointed out to Lynx, there clearly isn't.

As I said above, you and the people who share your viewpoints are free to waste your own time in what will more than likely prove to be a futile effort to force an unnecessary change simply because you think said change should be made, but don't expect others outside your 'circle' to support your cause.

Regarding hostility towards you guys, it only comes when you try and act like your opinions are the only ones that matter, and when you try to 'force' those of us who don't share your viewpoints/opinions to support your cause by insinuating that, if we don't support your cause, we're not 'true' Janeway or Voyager fans.

I posted in the last thread where this whole topic was breached, and you were one of the people I started arguing with on this very point, so it isn't like this whole issue of hostility is something that's taken you guys by surprise. If you don't want to be approached with hostility, don't come in trying to push your viewpoints on other people, especially people who don't share said viewpoints.

DigificWriter, I've sent many posts here where I've said quite clearly that others are allowed to not like Voyager. You don't have to like Janeway. You don't have to agree with how we feel. That's not an issue at all for me and I've said it enough already to show the truth in that statement.

You (and anyone else) are allowed to have your own viewpoint that doesn't match ours.

In general I've been considerably more respectful of that other viewpoint while standing firm to my own. I can't and won't speak for the actions of others in the past, present or future who voice their opinions on the matter. However, if someone is rude I am also quite willing and able to address that.

It's amazing how at so many trek sites, people are so hostile and outright mean to one another for a different view point. I have admitted freely that Voyager had flaws both in its premise and in its characters however, those flaws were due to the writing and direction given by whoever happened to be in control of the franchise at that point. Heck even at the "Bring Back Janeway" facebook page, I posted a link to an article at GiantFreakingRobot dot come which was really not very pro-Voyager or even pro-Janeway but which I still think was kind of funny in it's message.

If you want to read it.. it's right here:

http://www.giantfreakinrobot.com/tel...er-worked.html

I quite honestly thought some of what they said was hilarious.


People talk about Janeway's actions but really, the problem there is deeper in that someone in control of the series approved it.

Voyager wasn't perfect.

Janeway wasn't perfect.

Life itself, isn't perfect. Yes there are things I can and do support which make more of a world impact (Recycling efforts, Autism Awareness as I have 2 autistic nephews who I love dearly, just to name two).

This is something that's just a little fun for me. I loved Voyager and I loved Kathryn Janeway because of those flaws.

I hope that through all of this that we'll accomplish our goal and see some new Voyager based novels with Janeway back.


Is it so terribly difficult to just say that you don't agree without having to be quite so hostile about it?
Even if it wasn't your intent, the way you chose to broach this subject - a petition for the 'Bring Back Janeway' cause - was very confrontational, especially given how volatile previous instances where this topic has been broached have been.

If all you were trying to do was 'get the word out' about the petition's existence, it would have helped immensely if the title of this thread wasn't 'Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please', and if your original post hadn't contained as justification for the petition's existence a host of false ideas as to why you guys think this whole issue is a cause worth championing.
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Old January 1 2012, 12:57 AM   #73
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Violet.Phoenix wrote: View Post
I'd just like to say that I don't want to argue. I just feel like we all should be able to state our opinions but not be bashed for it. We're all here because we like Star Trek, not to pinpoint flaws and argue over them. Some people liked Janeway, some didn't and I'm okay with that. Some of us want her back in the books, some don't. We all have our causes, and if we choose to support them, then that's our choice.
Of course people are entitled to their own opinions. However they are not entitled to their own facts. One of the things that bugs me big time is this constant whining that Janeway was somehow treated unfairly by being killed off. Worse than that is the notion that she is being treated differently than the male characters. Yet when its pointed out that she is NOT being treated differently there is silence. These people keep saying again and again that the men get resurrected but not the women but ignore that the men have NOT be resurrected. In fact only one character in Trek history has ever been formally dead and brought back to life. That was Spock. Everyone else that has died has stayed dead. Thus demanding that Janeway stay dead is not some conspiracy to keep women down.
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Old January 1 2012, 12:58 AM   #74
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

DigificWriter wrote: View Post
Blacglac wrote: View Post
If you don't want to sign the petition, then don't. No-one is making you, or trying to make you.
All we are doing is trying to spread the message in as many places as possible, so that those that would like to see Janeway return to the series can get involved with others who share that viewpoint. This isn't about forcing our opinion down your throat
I'm sorry, but that's a whole lot of BS. If all you guys were trying to do was 'get the word out' about the petition's existence, the title of this thread wouldn't be 'Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please', and people like Syx, Brit, and Lynx wouldn't be spouting off ridiculous and ultimately wrong ideas about why signing this petition is something that people should care about doing.
And how else do you let folks know what they're going to get?
Also, given the title and your apparent dis-like bordering on patronising attitude for those who want it to succeed:
Why did you open the thread? Seems as if you opened just to spout off about how everyone who wants Janeway back is wrong and you are right in thinking she's better off gone...
Bit arrogant and attention seeking, no?
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Old January 1 2012, 01:01 AM   #75
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

[QUOTE=Syn.Sixx;5512468][QUOTE=Gotham Central;5512213]
The Shatner books, Trek Online and enve the JJ Verse/Countdown comics are NOT part of Trek Lit continuity. Sisko was NEVER dead and said that he would return...how many times do you people need to be told that! Those characters that were killed remain dead in TrekLit. Kirk...STILL DEAD. Data...STILL DEAD. Conversely, Janeway IS ALIVE in the same Trek Online Universe with Data.

"You people"?

Really? There are quite a few of us here who support the idea and hope of seeing Janeway return to the novels and we can do so without such crass comments as "you people", said in a tone to imply there is something inherently wrong with a group of Voyager fans who want Janeway back.

There is NOTHING wrong with us.

We're still here, and still trying in spite of the rude remarks, and outright hostility continually thrown at us by others who don't feel there is a need to even pretend as such niceties as courtesy to others.




What do you mean Spock's resurrection was miraculous because it never happened? He was dead! They buried him in space inside a modified photon torpedo and his body was destroyed then regenerated by the Genesis Device!

Of course it happened!

Stop trying to bully others because you personally don't like or agree with our view point. You're allowed to have your own opinion, but being nasty and trying to degrade or somehow trivialize what we say and what we hope for is just plain rude.
Wow your reading comprehension is seriously lacking. I did not say that it "never happened" I said that it "never happens." The idea being that, like the real world, people that die in the line of duty don't just come back. In the Trek universe, death is permanent. Spocks resurrection was highly irregular, just as it would be in the real world.
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