RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,612
Posts: 5,425,911
Members: 24,808
Currently online: 442
Newest member: Dustyinn

TrekToday headlines

IDW Publishing December Trek Comics
By: T'Bonz on Sep 17

September Loot Crate Features Trek Surprise
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

USS Enterprise Miniature Out For Refit
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Star Trek/Planet of the Apes Comic Crossover
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Trek 3 Shooting Next Spring?
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Star Trek: Alien Domain Game Announced
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Red Shirt Diaries Episode Three
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Made Out Of Mudd Photonovel
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Takei Has Growth Removed
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Retro Review: Tears of the Prophets
By: Michelle on Sep 12


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 31 2011, 07:00 AM   #376
Kirsten Beyer
Writer
 
Kirsten Beyer's Avatar
 
Location: Los Angeles
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Similarly, in 'Endgame', Janeway had to choose between two options:
- either destroy the transwarp hub, immobilising the borg for, at most, a few years (at most because the borg, with unlimited man-power, could rebuild the transwarp hub; or it could build slip-stream ships; etc), after which time the federation was to be destroyed by the borg (the federation having no chance in hell of stopping even a smallish borg attack - as seen in 'destiny')
- or don't destroy the transwarp hub, keeping the federation a low priority target for the borg, the borg concentrating on other species.

In other words, Janeway had the choice between her peeople and stangers - another situation in which there was no morally 'white' option.
Janeway chose to sacrifice her own people, federation citizens she was sworn to protect - thus betraying her oath as a starfleet officer, to be loyal to the federation.

I'm not going to get into the Picard thing because it's not my particular area of expertise, though I don't find your argument in the least bit compelling.

Regarding Voyager, Janeway and Endgame, however...

While you may find the writing of Engame a little shortsighted, the case as portrayed in the episode was quite clear...

Yes, the Borg had assimilated slipstream previously, but Seven told Janeway (I think in Timeless) that the Borg had abandoned slipstream because they found transwarp more efficient. Could they go back to it if they needed to? I guess. But transwarp was their standard means of FTL propulsion at the time the episode aired.

Janeway chose not to simply use the hub to get her crew home early but to destroy it because as one of only six hubs in the entire galaxy it was believed that to destroy it, rather than use it, would cripple the Borg and prevent them from assimilating lots of people who otherwise might have been assimilated. And the hub was only part of it. The hub was merely a juncture for the transwarp tunnels which were also destroyed in Voyager's attack. The hub the Borg could rebuild, but the transwarp tunnels themselves...I'm not sure we have anything in cannon telling us how those are created...if the Borg did that, or just found them and put them to use.

In the episode Janeway asks her crew to weigh in on using versus destroying the hub and all of them agree that to spare billions of people they don't even know possible assimilation, it is worth extending their journey as long as it takes. Tuvok is facing a mentally debilitating illness and Seven a possible death, but all agree to risk that to seriously hinder the Borg's ability to assimilate others at will.

It is only once that choice is made that Janeway and the Admiral concoct the idea to further cripple the Borg by infecting the Queen with a neurolytic pathogen that will kill her and do heaven knows how much further damage to the collective to create the possibility that Voyager can have their cake and eat it too...destroy the hub, and get home in the process.

At no time is the point raised that by doing this, they are going to so totally piss the Borg off that they will direct all of their efforts to ending the Federation. The Borg have known about the Federation, and presumably had those transwarp hubs leading to the Alpha Quadrant for a long time already. Voyager has also seen firsthand that sometimes the Borg shoot themselves in the foot, as with Species 8472 so to decide that the Borg are completely unstoppable would fly in the face of Voyager's experience with the Borg.

You may think that the characters could not have thought otherwise...surely if we do this the Borg will destroy the Federation so maybe we should reconsider how much we want to piss them off...but that was not the argument made in the episode. Janeway's intention was to deal what she believed was a crushing blow to a species that was obviously incredibly dangerous, and for all she knew close off a number of a handful of routes they had all over the galaxy, including to the Alpha Quadrant. She was willing to sacrifice herself, her crew, and their chance to return home early to do that, potentially sparing billions assimilation and but for Admiral Janeway's choice to sacrifice her life in the final attack on the Borg, would have done just that.

You are taking what you would have thought in their place and perhaps what eventually occurred in Destiny as evidence that our characters are criminally negligent or criminally stupid or both. But the idea that this action might have greater ramifications for the Federation in the near future was never on the table here.

But for a moment, let's say, they had thought of it. Let's say Janeway decides that this action, in addition to sparing those who would have been assimilated using this hub, will so enrage the Borg that the Federation will now become the sole target for the Borg. Yes, we saw in Destiny how much trouble the Federation had dealing with the attack. But Janeway would have had faith in the Federation that you obviously do not share. If the Borg are fighting the Federation, they also aren't off assimilating others. I'm pretty sure Janeway would have believed that whatever the Borg threw at them, the Federation would find a way to counter. She'd done it on her own a number of times already in their battles in the Delta Quadrant. So yes, she's putting the Federation at risk, but at a calculated risk she would have believed the Federation would have been in a better place to handle than alot of other civilizations. Further, if we accept your premise that the Borg already have a route to the Alpha Quadrant, be it the transwarp tunnels or going back to slipstream propulsion, it is only a matter of time before the Borg come for the Federation so either way, what's the difference? The Federation knows the Borg will come eventually. Presumabely they are preparing for it, and for Voyager to return at this point with all they have learned in their years of fighting the Borg, they might be bringing information the Federation can use in their ultimate showdown.

When you are talking about the Borg, you are talking about a species that is going to do damage wherever they go. Janeway didn't have a choice to end them forever, but she had what she believed was the next best thing and she was willing to take it, no matter what sacrifices it would have demanded of her crew.

I just don't think you can judge the Janeway of Endgame by the fallout of Destiny.

Probably just me.

Kirsten Beyer
Kirsten Beyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 31 2011, 07:27 AM   #377
Killandra
Lieutenant Commander
 
Killandra's Avatar
 
Location: Virginia
View Killandra's Twitter Profile Send a message via AIM to Killandra Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Killandra Send a message via Yahoo to Killandra
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Kirsten Beyer wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Similarly, in 'Endgame', Janeway had to choose between two options:
- either destroy the transwarp hub, immobilising the borg for, at most, a few years (at most because the borg, with unlimited man-power, could rebuild the transwarp hub; or it could build slip-stream ships; etc), after which time the federation was to be destroyed by the borg (the federation having no chance in hell of stopping even a smallish borg attack - as seen in 'destiny')
- or don't destroy the transwarp hub, keeping the federation a low priority target for the borg, the borg concentrating on other species.

In other words, Janeway had the choice between her peeople and stangers - another situation in which there was no morally 'white' option.
Janeway chose to sacrifice her own people, federation citizens she was sworn to protect - thus betraying her oath as a starfleet officer, to be loyal to the federation.

I'm not going to get into the Picard thing because it's not my particular area of expertise, though I don't find your argument in the least bit compelling.

Regarding Voyager, Janeway and Endgame, however...

While you may find the writing of Engame a little shortsighted, the case as portrayed in the episode was quite clear...

Yes, the Borg had assimilated slipstream previously, but Seven told Janeway (I think in Timeless) that the Borg had abandoned slipstream because they found transwarp more efficient. Could they go back to it if they needed to? I guess. But transwarp was their standard means of FTL propulsion at the time the episode aired.

Janeway chose not to simply use the hub to get her crew home early but to destroy it because as one of only six hubs in the entire galaxy it was believed that to destroy it, rather than use it, would cripple the Borg and prevent them from assimilating lots of people who otherwise might have been assimilated. And the hub was only part of it. The hub was merely a juncture for the transwarp tunnels which were also destroyed in Voyager's attack. The hub the Borg could rebuild, but the transwarp tunnels themselves...I'm not sure we have anything in cannon telling us how those are created...if the Borg did that, or just found them and put them to use.

In the episode Janeway asks her crew to weigh in on using versus destroying the hub and all of them agree that to spare billions of people they don't even know possible assimilation, it is worth extending their journey as long as it takes. Tuvok is facing a mentally debilitating illness and Seven a possible death, but all agree to risk that to seriously hinder the Borg's ability to assimilate others at will.

It is only once that choice is made that Janeway and the Admiral concoct the idea to further cripple the Borg by infecting the Queen with a neurolytic pathogen that will kill her and do heaven knows how much further damage to the collective to create the possibility that Voyager can have their cake and eat it too...destroy the hub, and get home in the process.

At no time is the point raised that by doing this, they are going to so totally piss the Borg off that they will direct all of their efforts to ending the Federation. The Borg have known about the Federation, and presumably had those transwarp hubs leading to the Alpha Quadrant for a long time already. Voyager has also seen firsthand that sometimes the Borg shoot themselves in the foot, as with Species 8472 so to decide that the Borg are completely unstoppable would fly in the face of Voyager's experience with the Borg.

You may think that the characters could not have thought otherwise...surely if we do this the Borg will destroy the Federation so maybe we should reconsider how much we want to piss them off...but that was not the argument made in the episode. Janeway's intention was to deal what she believed was a crushing blow to a species that was obviously incredibly dangerous, and for all she knew close off a number of a handful of routes they had all over the galaxy, including to the Alpha Quadrant. She was willing to sacrifice herself, her crew, and their chance to return home early to do that, potentially sparing billions assimilation and but for Admiral Janeway's choice to sacrifice her life in the final attack on the Borg, would have done just that.

You are taking what you would have thought in their place and perhaps what eventually occurred in Destiny as evidence that our characters are criminally negligent or criminally stupid or both. But the idea that this action might have greater ramifications for the Federation in the near future was never on the table here.

But for a moment, let's say, they had thought of it. Let's say Janeway decides that this action, in addition to sparing those who would have been assimilated using this hub, will so enrage the Borg that the Federation will now become the sole target for the Borg. Yes, we saw in Destiny how much trouble the Federation had dealing with the attack. But Janeway would have had faith in the Federation that you obviously do not share. If the Borg are fighting the Federation, they also aren't off assimilating others. I'm pretty sure Janeway would have believed that whatever the Borg threw at them, the Federation would find a way to counter. She'd done it on her own a number of times already in their battles in the Delta Quadrant. So yes, she's putting the Federation at risk, but at a calculated risk she would have believed the Federation would have been in a better place to handle than alot of other civilizations. Further, if we accept your premise that the Borg already have a route to the Alpha Quadrant, be it the transwarp tunnels or going back to slipstream propulsion, it is only a matter of time before the Borg come for the Federation so either way, what's the difference? The Federation knows the Borg will come eventually. Presumabely they are preparing for it, and for Voyager to return at this point with all they have learned in their years of fighting the Borg, they might be bringing information the Federation can use in their ultimate showdown.

When you are talking about the Borg, you are talking about a species that is going to do damage wherever they go. Janeway didn't have a choice to end them forever, but she had what she believed was the next best thing and she was willing to take it, no matter what sacrifices it would have demanded of her crew.

I just don't think you can judge the Janeway of Endgame by the fallout of Destiny.

Probably just me.

Kirsten Beyer
I couldn't have said this better myself.
__________________
"Listen to me very carefully because I'm only going to say this once. Coffee. Black."-Kathryn Janeway
Killandra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 31 2011, 07:58 AM   #378
Thrawn
Rear Admiral
 
Thrawn's Avatar
 
Location: Washington, DC
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Every time she posts, it's inarguably awesome.

Sort of like every time she writes a Star Trek novel, actually.
Thrawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 31 2011, 10:50 AM   #379
Killandra
Lieutenant Commander
 
Killandra's Avatar
 
Location: Virginia
View Killandra's Twitter Profile Send a message via AIM to Killandra Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Killandra Send a message via Yahoo to Killandra
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Thrawn wrote: View Post
Every time she posts, it's inarguably awesome.

Sort of like every time she writes a Star Trek novel, actually.
I am coming to realize that.
__________________
"Listen to me very carefully because I'm only going to say this once. Coffee. Black."-Kathryn Janeway
Killandra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 31 2011, 12:19 PM   #380
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Let's be honest here. It's not Janeway's fault or Picard's fault for Destiny.... it's that drunken douchebag Zefram Cochrane's fault! If he'd just died like the Borg wanted, none of this would have ever happened.

Of maybe it's Surak's fault....
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 31 2011, 01:58 PM   #381
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..."
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Or maybe it's no one's fault but the Borg's.

Just a thought.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 31 2011, 02:19 PM   #382
Edit_XYZ
Fleet Captain
 
Edit_XYZ's Avatar
 
Location: At star's end.
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Kirsten Beyer wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Similarly, in 'Endgame', Janeway had to choose between two options:
- either destroy the transwarp hub, immobilising the borg for, at most, a few years (at most because the borg, with unlimited man-power, could rebuild the transwarp hub; or it could build slip-stream ships; etc), after which time the federation was to be destroyed by the borg (the federation having no chance in hell of stopping even a smallish borg attack - as seen in 'destiny')
- or don't destroy the transwarp hub, keeping the federation a low priority target for the borg, the borg concentrating on other species.

In other words, Janeway had the choice between her peeople and stangers - another situation in which there was no morally 'white' option.
Janeway chose to sacrifice her own people, federation citizens she was sworn to protect - thus betraying her oath as a starfleet officer, to be loyal to the federation.

I'm not going to get into the Picard thing because it's not my particular area of expertise, though I don't find your argument in the least bit compelling.

Regarding Voyager, Janeway and Endgame, however...

While you may find the writing of Engame a little shortsighted, the case as portrayed in the episode was quite clear...

Yes, the Borg had assimilated slipstream previously, but Seven told Janeway (I think in Timeless) that the Borg had abandoned slipstream because they found transwarp more efficient. Could they go back to it if they needed to? I guess. But transwarp was their standard means of FTL propulsion at the time the episode aired.

Janeway chose not to simply use the hub to get her crew home early but to destroy it because as one of only six hubs in the entire galaxy it was believed that to destroy it, rather than use it, would cripple the Borg and prevent them from assimilating lots of people who otherwise might have been assimilated. And the hub was only part of it. The hub was merely a juncture for the transwarp tunnels which were also destroyed in Voyager's attack. The hub the Borg could rebuild, but the transwarp tunnels themselves...I'm not sure we have anything in cannon telling us how those are created...if the Borg did that, or just found them and put them to use.
Slipstream may be less efficient than transwarp, but it's FAR more efficient than mere warp.
If the borg doesn't have transwarp, it will recourse to slip-stream.

About transwarp - from 'Q, who' to 'Endgame' - aka in a few years - the borg built a transwarp tunnel leading into the heart of the federation (sol system)
In DS9 'Lesser evil', after finding out about the dominion from the federation, the borg built a transwarp tunnel to the gamma quadrant - aka in a few years.

Which means - destoying the transwarp hub would 'contain' the borg for 3-5 years, at most.

At no time is the point raised that by doing this, they are going to so totally piss the Borg off that they will direct all of their efforts to ending the Federation. The Borg have known about the Federation, and presumably had those transwarp hubs leading to the Alpha Quadrant for a long time already. Voyager has also seen firsthand that sometimes the Borg shoot themselves in the foot, as with Species 8472 so to decide that the Borg are completely unstoppable would fly in the face of Voyager's experience with the Borg.

You may think that the characters could not have thought otherwise...surely if we do this the Borg will destroy the Federation so maybe we should reconsider how much we want to piss them off...but that was not the argument made in the episode. Janeway's intention was to deal what she believed was a crushing blow to a species that was obviously incredibly dangerous, and for all she knew close off a number of a handful of routes they had all over the galaxy, including to the Alpha Quadrant. She was willing to sacrifice herself, her crew, and their chance to return home early to do that, potentially sparing billions assimilation and but for Admiral Janeway's choice to sacrifice her life in the final attack on the Borg, would have done just that.

But for a moment, let's say, they had thought of it. Let's say Janeway decides that this action, in addition to sparing those who would have been assimilated using this hub, will so enrage the Borg that the Federation will now become the sole target for the Borg. Yes, we saw in Destiny how much trouble the Federation had dealing with the attack. But Janeway would have had faith in the Federation that you obviously do not share. If the Borg are fighting the Federation, they also aren't off assimilating others. I'm pretty sure Janeway would have believed that whatever the Borg threw at them, the Federation would find a way to counter. She'd done it on her own a number of times already in their battles in the Delta Quadrant. So yes, she's putting the Federation at risk, but at a calculated risk she would have believed the Federation would have been in a better place to handle than alot of other civilizations.
Janeway won a few engagements with the borg in the delta quadrant, yes, but all her victories were small-scale:
In 'Scorpion', it was established that the borg has MILLIONS OF CUBES.

In 'Destiny', we saw how a borg invasion against the federation (and everyone else in the alpha and beta quadrants) played out:
The borg, sending only 7000+ cubes (a VERY SMALL fleet, by its standards), BRUTALIZED starfleet (and everyone else); it squashed them as if they were mere insects.

The gulf between the borg's military technology/numbers and the federation's was shown to be hopelessly large by the time of 'Endgame'.
So large that any half-decent computer simulation would show that, in the case of even a smallish borg invasion, starfleet/the federation's chances of survival are so small as to be merely mathematical abstractions.

Janeway essentially gambled that the federation would win a lottery with VERY small chances of winning. And she gambled with the lives of all federation citizens in existence, lives she, as a starfleet officer, was sworn to protect.

As for Janeway's faith in the federation that "I do not share" - having faith that you'll win the lottery tomorrow just because you bought a ticket is both foolish and reckless.
And, of course, 'Destiny' showed that Janeway's faith in the federation was misplaced.

The point about pissing the borg off was not raised in 'Endgame' simply beause the scenarists didn't think the situation through; they just wanted to make a showy return home for voyager and didn't bother with the geo-political implications for the trekverse.

Further, if we accept your premise that the Borg already have a route to the Alpha Quadrant, be it the transwarp tunnels or going back to slipstream propulsion, it is only a matter of time before the Borg come for the Federation so either way, what's the difference? The Federation knows the Borg will come eventually. Presumabely they are preparing for it, and for Voyager to return at this point with all they have learned in their years of fighting the Borg, they might be bringing information the Federation can use in their ultimate showdown
The difference is the borg will come later, not 'now', giving the federation the time to prepare.

When the transwarp hub was destroyed, the federation had no chance in hell of surviving even a smallish borg invasion.
But, only a few decades later, as per old Janeway, the federation will be in a FAR better position to confront the borg.

The good news was that, until the transwarp hub was destroyed, the federation was very low on the borg's list of priorities - since 'Q, who', it only sent TWO CUBES (out of MILLIONS) to attack the federation; barely scouting missions, considering the borg's resources.
The borg doesn't need 'preparations' in order to send a few hundreds/thousands of cubes - it has MILLIONS!
The "ultimate showdown" between a mosquito and a bug zapper!

About what Janeway&co learned - Voyager was communicating with the federation on a regular basis by the time of 'Endgame'; the learned information could be sent easily.

In the given situation, Janeway's job was to keep the federation a low priority for the borg until the federation actually stood a chance against the collective.

In the episode Janeway asks her crew to weigh in on using versus destroying the hub and all of them agree that to spare billions of people they don't even know possible assimilation, it is worth extending their journey as long as it takes. Tuvok is facing a mentally debilitating illness and Seven a possible death, but all agree to risk that to seriously hinder the Borg's ability to assimilate others at will.
Old Janeway travelled back through time in order to bring her crew (specially 7 of 9) home. Her plan involved showing off to the borg anachronistic technology, highly effective against the collective (transphasics&co). Thus, there was a good chance her plan would focus the collective's attention on the federation - which translates into A LOT MORE than one cube participating in an imminent next borg attack.
Young Janeway agreed with the showing off part of the plan.

Yes, the crew's motivation for destroying the transwarp hub was to cut off the borg from the rest of the galaxy.
And they agreed to put their lives at risk in order to accomplish this - as is their right.
What the crew did NOT have the right to do is put at such an insane risk the lives of billions of federation citizens - of the entire federation they were sworn to protect.

It is only once that choice is made that Janeway and the Admiral concoct the idea to further cripple the Borg by infecting the Queen with a neurolytic pathogen that will kill her and do heaven knows how much further damage to the collective to create the possibility that Voyager can have their cake and eat it too...destroy the hub, and get home in the process.
Having the cake and eating it too would mean Voyager getting home and the borg being cut off from the galaxy.
The latter part did NOT come to pass - as the 64 BILLION dead that paid with their blood for this 'cake' can attest to.

Worse - based on information available to Voyager by the time of 'Endgame', that this latter part will not come to pass was eminently predictable. Just as the federation being crushed if the borg ever sent a few thousand cubes was eminently predictable.

You are taking what you would have thought in their place and perhaps what eventually occurred in Destiny as evidence that our characters are criminally negligent or criminally stupid or both. But the idea that this action might have greater ramifications for the Federation in the near future was never on the table here.
Janeway&co were either staggeringly reckless or staggeringly megalomaniac, confident in their own infailibility, when they made the choice to destroy the transwarp hub - given the geopolitical situation of the trekverse.
So yes, they were either criminally negligent or criminally stupid or both.

Of course, it was not the intent of the scenarists to present the characters in this manner. As said, they simply didn't think things through - or care about the larger implications of Janeway&co's actions. Which is why these 'larger implications' were not on the table.


At present, the only way Janeway's decision could be seen as reasonable is if there were CREDIBLE REASONS for her to be sure of the fact that the borg can't use slipstream (to send cubes wherever it wants in the glaxy in little time); can't rebuild the transwarp network (for the next few decades); can't use another 'beyond warp' tech assimilated from whomever for rapid travel.
Needless to say, such 'credible reasons' are nowhere established.

Last edited by Edit_XYZ; December 31 2011 at 05:53 PM.
Edit_XYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 31 2011, 02:59 PM   #383
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..."
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

^^ You have a remarkable capacity to speak with absolute certainty about things that can only reasonably be inferred with hindsight. Perhaps you should become a trial lawyer.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 31 2011, 05:15 PM   #384
Elias Vaughn
Captain
 
Elias Vaughn's Avatar
 
Location: Dead. Or in the Celestial Temple. One of the two.
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

I haven't seen Endgame in, like, forever, so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but... Didn't Janeway originally want to leave the hub alone until she was handed defensive technology that let Voyager handle Borg attacks, and a torpedo that could kill a Cube in one shot? Why would she ever consider the Federation to be vulnerable to the Borg if she had those?
Elias Vaughn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 31 2011, 05:25 PM   #385
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Elias Vaughn wrote: View Post
I haven't seen Endgame in, like, forever, so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but... Didn't Janeway originally want to leave the hub alone until she was handed defensive technology that let Voyager handle Borg attacks, and a torpedo that could kill a Cube in one shot? Why would she ever consider the Federation to be vulnerable to the Borg if she had those?
The Borg inevitably adapt to any new defense in time; in fact, they adapted to the ablative armor in "Endgame" itself. The value of the new weapons was simply that they were new, that the Borg hadn't dealt with them yet and thus hadn't adapted. That made their benefit short-term at best. That's why Nechayev was so reluctant to authorize the use of transphasic torpedoes during the Invasion -- because the more they were used, the quicker the Borg would adapt to them and render them useless (like the way germs develop resistance to antibiotics and disinfectants if you overuse them).
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 31 2011, 10:16 PM   #386
rfmcdpei
Captain
 
rfmcdpei's Avatar
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
View rfmcdpei's Twitter Profile
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
At present, the only way Janeway's decision could be seen as reasonable is if there were CREDIBLE REASONS for her to be sure of the fact that the borg can't use slipstream (to send cubes wherever it wants in the glaxy in little time); can't rebuild the transwarp network (for the next few decades); can't use another 'beyond warp' tech assimilated from whomever for rapid travel.
Needless to say, such 'credible reasons' are nowhere established.
The Borg attacks made on the Federation post-Endgame didn't make use of slipstream or transwarp, but involved either Borg vessels stranded in the area of the Federation or Borg vessels dispatched directly from the Collective via the unknown Caeliar species' wholly unknown subspace tunnels.
rfmcdpei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 1 2012, 01:13 AM   #387
Elias Vaughn
Captain
 
Elias Vaughn's Avatar
 
Location: Dead. Or in the Celestial Temple. One of the two.
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Christopher wrote: View Post
Elias Vaughn wrote: View Post
I haven't seen Endgame in, like, forever, so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but... Didn't Janeway originally want to leave the hub alone until she was handed defensive technology that let Voyager handle Borg attacks, and a torpedo that could kill a Cube in one shot? Why would she ever consider the Federation to be vulnerable to the Borg if she had those?
The Borg inevitably adapt to any new defense in time; in fact, they adapted to the ablative armor in "Endgame" itself. The value of the new weapons was simply that they were new, that the Borg hadn't dealt with them yet and thus hadn't adapted. That made their benefit short-term at best. That's why Nechayev was so reluctant to authorize the use of transphasic torpedoes during the Invasion -- because the more they were used, the quicker the Borg would adapt to them and render them useless (like the way germs develop resistance to antibiotics and disinfectants if you overuse them).
All true, but there was some dissension on the topic; I think it was Admiral Shelby who scoffed at the idea that the Borg could adapt to something that kills in one shot. Janeway could have thought something similar.
Elias Vaughn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 1 2012, 01:35 AM   #388
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Elias Vaughn wrote: View Post
All true, but there was some dissension on the topic; I think it was Admiral Shelby who scoffed at the idea that the Borg could adapt to something that kills in one shot. Janeway could have thought something similar.
No, Janeway was familiar enough with the Borg to know they'd adapt to anything in time. But of course she couldn't possibly have known that the Borg would find an alternate route to the UFP as quickly as they did, leaving the UFP so little time to develop further defenses.

In fact, if I recall Homecoming/The Farther Shore correctly, didn't Starfleet Command pretty much shut the Voyager crew out of the process of researching and developing the enhanced technologies they brought back from the Delta Quadrant? Given the choice, Janeway would probably have pushed Starfleet to develop anti-Borg defenses faster because she understood the continuing threat they posed, but Starfleet was still recovering from the Dominion War and was maybe reluctant to face the prospect of another existential threat so soon, so they dragged their feet on it. So if anyone was complacent about the threat from the Borg, it wasn't Janeway.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 1 2012, 04:22 AM   #389
bfollowell
Commander
 
bfollowell's Avatar
 
Location: Evansville, IN, USA
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Well, I did it. I just finished Before Dishonor. I have to say, I really don't see what all the fuss is about. I mean, for more than a year now, ever since joining this forum, every so often I've read some new set of posts going on and on about how this is the worst TrekLit ever written and how the killing off of Janeway is the worst crime known to man.

I have to say, I just don't get it. I mean, it is far from the best TrekLit I've ever read. It's far from the best Peter David novel I've ever read. It's far from the worst of either also. Yes, it has some of Peter's typical quirkiness; big deal. Yes, he killed of Janeway and I don't see why it was necessary, but then again, I rarely see why the death of any character is absolutely necessary. It's just a plot element and I don't tell the author's how to do their jobs.

I guess, after all the negative hype I've been reading for the past year, this novel was really anti-climatic. Yes, Janeway's dead, or not dead, depending on how you choose to look at it. I guess that's a bad thing if you're a huge Janeway fan. Personally, I liked her in the show but, the way she was being written into the relaunch novels, well, I just found her annoying and won't miss her at all.

OK, now it's time to move on. I'm only two books away from Destiny and I don't have time to worry about Janeway's fate or how supposedly bad this novel was.

Happy New Year to everyone. Make sure to read plenty in the the new year, TrekLit or otherwise.

- Byron
__________________
Underachievement - Because soaring with the eagles requires so much more effort.

Last edited by bfollowell; January 1 2012 at 01:22 PM.
bfollowell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 1 2012, 09:39 AM   #390
Edit_XYZ
Fleet Captain
 
Edit_XYZ's Avatar
 
Location: At star's end.
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
At present, the only way Janeway's decision could be seen as reasonable is if there were CREDIBLE REASONS for her to be sure of the fact that the borg can't use slipstream (to send cubes wherever it wants in the glaxy in little time); can't rebuild the transwarp network (for the next few decades); can't use another 'beyond warp' tech assimilated from whomever for rapid travel.
Needless to say, such 'credible reasons' are nowhere established.
The Borg attacks made on the Federation post-Endgame didn't make use of slipstream or transwarp, but involved either Borg vessels stranded in the area of the Federation or Borg vessels dispatched directly from the Collective via the unknown Caeliar species' wholly unknown subspace tunnels.
I never said it cannot be done, rfmcdpei.

PS - Happy New Year to all!

Last edited by Edit_XYZ; January 1 2012 at 12:23 PM.
Edit_XYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:58 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.